Let's talk about Brandywines - Page 2

Lindalana · February 5, 2015

Marianne Peace is one of my fav tomatoes, I really liked Brandywine Cowlicks last year. Keeper for sure. I too have short season. It was not early, midseason on late side for me.

Sun City Linda · February 5, 2015

I'm growing Cowlicks for the first time this year. Actually I grew it last year but inadvertently gave away all my seedlings of it. Anxious to see how it does in my SoCal climate.

AKmark · February 5, 2015

I got 39lbs from a Cowlick;s last year in a container, the fruit was pretty, and the taste was great. I also really like Sudduth's, but I should admit that have a pink tomato addiction problem, I have a good list of keeper pinks because of that.

gssgarden · February 5, 2015

Ok, let me get this straight. The way Cowlicks came about was because it out performed some other Brandywine's?

I have not grown it and forgive me if I seem argumentative, but it just doesn't seem like it has much merit to be yet another strain of Brandywine. Just seems like there are too many strains and it's very confusing to even try to figure them out.

If it had different traits, i.e. foliage, color, I could understand.

Again, I'm just trying to understand this but I think that if someone has an excellent year, or years with a certain variety, the re-naming of tomatoes would be endless. Which it seems the Brandywine line is..

travis · February 5, 2015

I understand what GSS is saying to some extent ...

I've never understood reclassifying or renaming tomatoes based on production. I grew a single tomato plant from Brandywine seeds I bought in 2006 from one of those Livingston Seed Co. (Columbus, Ohio) displays you see at farm supply stores.

We had a cool rainy spring, and it took from April 9 until mid-August for me to get ripe fruit from that plant. But I got 36 ripe, pink, delicious tomatoes from that single Brandywine vine, and it set some more little green ones at the end of August when the heat died down. But I pulled the plant out to put in some shrubs against the house where I had been growing tomatoes.

Here's one day's pickings from that single Brandywine plant.

I guess I could've renamed that tomato "Livingston's Brandywine" because it outperformed all expectations I had after reading many posts in several tomato forums about how finicky and underproductive Brandywine is.

On the other hand, I just figure I should enjoy and save seeds from those occasionally exceptional examples of the several varieties that come with the finicky reputations. Selection is your friend, you know.

Here's a shot of that "Livingston" Brandywine. The tag denotes a tomato holding seeds crossed with Neves Azorean Red pollen.

Here's a shot of Earl's Faux sitting right next to the Brandywine plant. The Brandywine outproduced EF that year.

More Earl's Faux ...

I further never understood why Earl's Faux came about other than a seed mix-up from a Brandywine seed lot.

Which of these are Brandywine and which are Earl's Faux? They're about half and half here.

Sun City Linda · February 5, 2015

Haha I bet you could toss half of the big pink beefsteaks grown into that pile and find little difference! I'm happy to have the opportunity to try Cowlicks for myself, but, if your not, don't!

gssgarden · February 5, 2015

Those are impressive pics of them on the plant!! and the table ones.

I'm just not sure I would call higher than usual production from a variety a new 'strain'.

I dunno. Just thinking out loud.

Greg

travis · February 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by gssgarden

Those are impressive pics of them on the plant!! and the table ones.

I'm just not sure I would call higher than usual production from a variety a new 'strain'.

I dunno. Just thinking out loud.

Greg

Exactly! The process of selection is key to maintaining and improving any open pollinated variety.

I've always questioned "Yellow Brandywine, Platfoot Strain." I mean really, how can one establish a completely independent "strain" of tomato in what ... 3 years was it? Or maybe it was four. Whatever ...

Although I admire the man's adherence to selection for improvement.

travis · February 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun City Linda

Haha I bet you could toss half of the big pink beefsteaks grown into that pile and find little difference!

I agree. Especially when it comes to those big pink beefsteaks that are documented to have come from a single variety, as is the case with several of the "Brandywines" with one name or another. And that includes "Stump of the World" which in its present form may have evolved from Brandywine, Sudduth via Big Ben, which according to Mr. Quisenberry's grandson was the previous name for Stump.

Sun City Linda · February 5, 2015

Well, when you have a particular variety and one distinguished itself consistently for much higher production than normal what would you do? If you wanted to share this find with others, you would have to give those particular seeds a name. Camo chose to identify it by the name of the nursery since he as unable to trace the people who produced and sold the original plants. Think about it. Would any of us really say oh this is a really great characteristic and then just mix all our seeds together and forget it?

I think not.

travis · February 5, 2015

Linda, Camo does things his way. That's fine with me. I just have a different outlook and a different way of doing things. I hope you are open minded enough to grasp and accept that the same way I grasp and accept what Camo does, even though I may disagree.

As to your question ...

What I do when I grow several plants of the same variety and discover a single plant or two that is exceptional? Well, I only save seeds from the best example(s) whether that be one single plant or a couple or three plants.

Yes, I keep the seeds I collect separate, plant by plant, and document the traits of each plant from which I collect the seeds. And I make a notation on the individual packets as to the superior traits I have assigned to each seed line.

No, I do not save seeds from an inferior plant, whether I adjudge that inferiority to be on account of poor production, disease susceptibility, incorrect leaf shape, excessive catfacing or other defects in the fruit, whatever the weakness.

And no, I would never mix seeds from separate plants together if one of the plants is inferior to the other(s) ... never.

After all, and as I've said, selection is your friend.

gssgarden · February 5, 2015

What constitutes 'much higher'?
If everyone reports KBX is a low producer, and I get 30 lbs of fruit, compared to person X who continually get 15lbs, and seeds came from him, do I have a new 'strain'? I just don't see it that way.

I'm certainly not taking anything away from Camo at all. It's just that the Brandywine strains never seem to stop and I'm sure someone somewhere will have a new and improved strain of it again soon.

I just would think that more is needed. Foliage, skin color, height, size, ...

If I were to take three seeds from a perfect tomato, there's no guarantee that all three will produce perfect tomatoes next year. There will always be variances of some kind. They be large or small but its still the same strain.

There have been people here who have said their Brandywine was their top producers too. Not every one has a low producer.

Again, not trying to be argumentative so I'll drop it.

Greg

travis · February 5, 2015

By the way, Brandywine (Sudduth) has shown noticeable variations since the very beginning.

The story of the original Brandywine (Sudduth) seed origin:
http://www.liseed.org/brandy.html

Excerpts:

"The Seed Savers Exchange was already listing Brandywine Tomato (Ben Quisenberry was the original source of record) among it's members while I was still selecting the plants and fruit from Ben Quisenberry's seed for desirable characteristics."

"After three years of selection, I offered the Brandywine Tomato in the 1984 Long Island Seed Catalog."

"It's my hunch that Ben selected his three big pink tomatoes as a gene pool perhaps somewhat removed from the other plants he grew. He probably wanted his pinks to stay pink. He might have selected from the chance hybrids that showed up in his patch. Sometimes that heterosis or hybrid vigor is noteworthy. My guess is that he was selecting for size and I bet, mostly for the flavor he preferred in all three of these tomatoes. I don't know much about the origin of Brandywine before Ben but certainly Brandywine developed some of it's character in the "Big Tomato Gardens" of Syracuse, Ohio."

[All quotes attributed to Ken Ettlinger, LISP]

Note in particular that three separate varieties came in that single packet, with the only differentiation being "Brandywine" had a different leaf shape (presumably potato leaf).

Also note, some form of Big Ben, which presumably was regular leaf, became Stump of the World, according to Ben's grandson, and Stump is potato leaf.

Also note that "Brandywine" was circulated via SSE prior to Ken Ettlinger's selection process and release of his selection a few years afterwards.

BTW, I believe it has been said in these forums that the Brandywine (Sudduth) sold by Johnny's Selected Seed, and thought to be the closest to the "correct" selection, came to Johnny's either directly or through one other hand from Ken Ettlinger.

gssgarden · February 5, 2015

This may be silly but if I were to grow Cowlicks, (this is just an example) and it gives me 30 lbs of fruit every year for a few yrs, THEN the next yrs I get extremely LOW production, and continually get LOW production for yrs after, using the same exact practices, do I have a new Brandywine 'strain'??

Of course it wouldn't sell but...lol

AKmark · February 5, 2015

You can also look at it this way. I grew BW Sudduth's, Glick's, and Cowlick's side by side, and there is a consistency in variations with cosmetics, yield , and taste, that is more notable between different BW versions, rather than selections from a particular strain side by side.

I agree with both view points, but I also do believe that if all pink tomatoes had a common parent, you will still see different variations, if many generations of separate selections from different people who select their choice "as best" for seed selection, is pursued. Names attached do help identify those attained qualities that some may prefer or others not so much, and it's fun too.
I have a whole stack of pinks this year, including BW everything, we will see how it goes.

February 5, 2015	#20
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	I understand what GSS is saying to some extent ... I've never understood reclassifying or renaming tomatoes based on production. I grew a single tomato plant from Brandywine seeds I bought in 2006 from one of those Livingston Seed Co. (Columbus, Ohio) displays you see at farm supply stores. We had a cool rainy spring, and it took from April 9 until mid-August for me to get ripe fruit from that plant. But I got 36 ripe, pink, delicious tomatoes from that single Brandywine vine, and it set some more little green ones at the end of August when the heat died down. But I pulled the plant out to put in some shrubs against the house where I had been growing tomatoes. Here's one day's pickings from that single Brandywine plant. I guess I could've renamed that tomato "Livingston's Brandywine" because it outperformed all expectations I had after reading many posts in several tomato forums about how finicky and underproductive Brandywine is. On the other hand, I just figure I should enjoy and save seeds from those occasionally exceptional examples of the several varieties that come with the finicky reputations. Selection is your friend, you know. Here's a shot of that "Livingston" Brandywine. The tag denotes a tomato holding seeds crossed with Neves Azorean Red pollen. Here's a shot of Earl's Faux sitting right next to the Brandywine plant. The Brandywine outproduced EF that year. More Earl's Faux ... I further never understood why Earl's Faux came about other than a seed mix-up from a Brandywine seed lot. Which of these are Brandywine and which are Earl's Faux? They're about half and half here. Last edited by travis; February 5, 2015 at 08:55 PM.

February 5, 2015	#26
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	Linda, Camo does things his way. That's fine with me. I just have a different outlook and a different way of doing things. I hope you are open minded enough to grasp and accept that the same way I grasp and accept what Camo does, even though I may disagree. As to your question ... What I do when I grow several plants of the same variety and discover a single plant or two that is exceptional? Well, I only save seeds from the best example(s) whether that be one single plant or a couple or three plants. Yes, I keep the seeds I collect separate, plant by plant, and document the traits of each plant from which I collect the seeds. And I make a notation on the individual packets as to the superior traits I have assigned to each seed line. No, I do not save seeds from an inferior plant, whether I adjudge that inferiority to be on account of poor production, disease susceptibility, incorrect leaf shape, excessive catfacing or other defects in the fruit, whatever the weakness. And no, I would never mix seeds from separate plants together if one of the plants is inferior to the other(s) ... never. After all, and as I've said, selection is your friend. Last edited by travis; February 5, 2015 at 09:51 PM.

February 5, 2015	#16
Lindalana Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Chicago IL Posts: 857	Marianne Peace is one of my fav tomatoes, I really liked Brandywine Cowlicks last year. Keeper for sure. I too have short season. It was not early, midseason on late side for me.

February 5, 2015	#17
Sun City Linda Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: SoCal Inland Posts: 2,705	I'm growing Cowlicks for the first time this year. Actually I grew it last year but inadvertently gave away all my seedlings of it. Anxious to see how it does in my SoCal climate.

February 5, 2015	#18
AKmark Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Wasilla Alaska Posts: 2,010	I got 39lbs from a Cowlick;s last year in a container, the fruit was pretty, and the taste was great. I also really like Sudduth's, but I should admit that have a pink tomato addiction problem, I have a good list of keeper pinks because of that.

February 5, 2015	#19
gssgarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,820	Ok, let me get this straight. The way Cowlicks came about was because it out performed some other Brandywine's? I have not grown it and forgive me if I seem argumentative, but it just doesn't seem like it has much merit to be yet another strain of Brandywine. Just seems like there are too many strains and it's very confusing to even try to figure them out. If it had different traits, i.e. foliage, color, I could understand. Again, I'm just trying to understand this but I think that if someone has an excellent year, or years with a certain variety, the re-naming of tomatoes would be endless. Which it seems the Brandywine line is..