a little breeders help please

[Minnesota Mato]

I would like to breed a tomato with both the B(beta- carotene)gene and the t(tangerine) gene. The only way I know either gene is present is the presence of the color orange. My problem is they both show orange, is there a way to know if both genes are present at the same time? craig

[travis]

I would suggest this: [Carolina Gold (for the tangerine gene) x a known high crimson gene variety such as Tasti-Lee] F1 x Caro Rich (for the high beta carotene).

Then select the F2s showing the deep reddish orange colors characteristic of beta carotene conversion of lycopene. I believe the tangerine gene still will be lurking, so then in the F3s taken from the beta-converting F2s, start selecting for the segregating tangerine expressions (the ones that are colored like the Carolina Gold parent).

[Minnesota Mato]

Thankyou for your suggestion . I knew nothing about carolina gold or tasti-lee so I have been doing my research. Right now I am growing tangerine and jubilee (for the tangerine gene) and two differant cheesmanii and juane flamme for the beta carotene. Could you explain the use of the high crimson gene, I am not real familiar with this and have been doing alot of reading. I would also be curios on your thoughts behind carolina gold, tasti-lee and caro rich. I appreciate your knowledge!!

[travis]

I suggested Carolina Gold for the tangerine gene, and because Carolina Gold is the product of complex parentage (using heat tolerant and disease tolerant Florida and NCSU lines) and including Jubilee as the tangerine gene base, but then selected and refined to resist cracking, skin checking, and gray wall, a condition to which Jubilee is susceptible. Carolina Gold is a high quality market tomato whose appearance has great appeal.

I suggested Caro Rich for the high beta carotene gene since you indicated that is what you are after, and because it would be delivered in a large, globe shaped fruit that won't greatly diminish the fruit size of a cross with Carolina Gold, which itself is bred to deliver large to extra large, flattened globe fruit.

I suggested Tasti-Lee because it is a modern development with high crimson gene, heat tolerance, high market and table appeal, ability to ripen more fully on the vine without loss of market quality, and supposedly carrying a higher flavor profile than other modern high crimson hybrids.

Beta carotene genetics works to convert high lycopene content in a high crimson-influenced fruit into beta carotene, so I think you are ahead to use a high crimson parent when crossing to a beta carotene parent. I have links to a couple of papers stored in my favorites at another computer, which papers would explain this phenomenon better than I can. But I suggested this path because when you grow out the F2 and F3s from a high crimson x beta carotene cross, the plants with fruit in which this beta carotene conversion occurs can be identified by the deep red-orange color of the fruit.

The papers to which I refer also give information regarding how the tangerine gene plays into beta and delta carotene in tomatoes, but I think the conclussion was rather disappointing with regard to beta carotene content compared with the results obtained from high lycopene lines. But maybe you are looking for color rather than anti-oxidant content.

I also think it's possible that KBX is an heirloom type that exhibits tangerine gene coloration (as opposed to rr yellow flesh). I cannot prove that, but the line of KBX I grow surely has that tangerine color, and it has a clear epidermis which enhances the appearance of the tangerine colored flesh underneath. The intense pigmentation in KBX flesh also stains the clear epidermis to the extent that many people mistakenly ID the skin as yellow epidermis, but I have carefully scraped off all the flesh to reveal it truly is clear. I only mention KBX because it's a wonderfully flavored and large, beautiful tomato, but it may be too late season for you in Minnesota, I don't know.

I suggested those three particular tomatoes (Carolina Gold, Tasti-Lee, and Caro Rich) also because all three are available from Totally Tomatoes, so you don't have to pay shipping from two or more companies to obtain the three seed lines I suggested. Of course I think Tangerine and Juane Flammee also are available from Totally Tomatoes, as I bought seeds for those two varieties from TT this winter myself.

As an aside, I think Caro Rich originally was developed, if I remember correctly, by Purdue University, and from a line of tomatoes originating from line of Rutgers tomatoes related to or same as Jubilee, which itself I think originated from Rutgers x Tangerine. I may be remembering that incorrectly, but papers exist online to confirm or refute my memory. I'm just burnt out of Googling this week, and as I said, my favorites are stored on another computer at a location I won't be visiting today (adopt-a-spot workday today).

I was intending to pursue the same project as you indicate, but I've misplaced my Caro Rich seeds. I've been completely thru my seeds twice in the past week, and cannot find them. But I do have the Juane Flammee seeds, as well as F3 and F4 seeds from a Juane Flammee x Sungold cross I made several years ago, and subsequently selected for lines that resemble Juane Flammee fruit shape and coloration (with the red-orange central diaphrams).

You and I have probably read the same papers regarding the high carotene content of Juane Flammee and one other heirloom type I cannot remember just now. And I think Juane Flammee probably carries higher and more distinctive flavor profile than Caro Rich, but then the fruit size intitially will greatly diminish the typically 8 - 12 ounce sizes anticipated from the other varieties I suggested and intend to use.

I also already have Carolina Gold and Tasti-Lee seedlings up and going intending to make that cross first. Thanks for the reminder, I'll plant some JF x SG seeds today for beta carotene pollen maybe to patch onto a Tasti-Lee or two stigma, just to be step ahead in the potential outcrossing/back crossing.

[Minnesota Mato]

My actual goal is to create a super healthy paste tomato. Until a year ago I was mainly focused on chile peppers and make tons of salsa. Then I started making my own ketchup and spagetti sauce. I want the increased beta - carotene but was thinking the tangerine gene might also give me better lycopene because it is more digestable/ usable. That is why I am using the cheesmanii, not only for the beta - carotene but for the higher soluble solids. I was hoping to cross it with a pink honey tomato witch has large fruit and a early maturity.

Reading your ideas made me rethink a few things. I like to start things from the begining like I'm going to reinvent to wheel. Maybe instead I should build of other work. Like with the carolina gold, why not use all the time and effort other breeders have put into it instead of using tangerine or jubilee and starting from scratch. If you do start this project I would be interested in its progress and maybe somewhere in the future we could share lines.

[Tracydr]

I wonder if the blue tomatoes with the acanthocynins would be helpful?

[Minnesota Mato]

Are all the acanthocynins in a blue tomatoe found only in the skin? could you have a blue skin and a high beta- carotene flesh? And if it is found only in the skin it doesn't help much because I remove the skin before processing.

[travis]

Originally Posted by Minnesota Mato

I like to start things from the begining like I'm going to reinvent to wheel. Maybe instead I should build of other work. Like with the carolina gold, why not use all the time and effort other breeders have put into it instead of using tangerine or jubilee and starting from scratch.

Mato: This is my thought exactly.

I too started several lines "from scratch," crossing an old standard commercial type with an heirloom, for example; or crossing two old standards known for heat tolerance, etc.

But then I ran across release notices for a few tomatoes developed by professional breeders, and realized they sometimes use other breeders' hybrid cultivars as a base, like Amelia (for TSWV res.) or Blazer (I suppose for heat tolearance).

In the case of Carolina Gold, one parent provides tendency for jumbo size fruit, but is susceptible to weather checking on the shoulders, and some potential for cracking. The other parent provides resistance to those defects. Both parents are based on Jubilee, which as I said can be susceptible to gray wall disorder, as are many yellow tomatoes, including Mountain Gold, an open pollinated predessor and parent to Carolina Gold (which as noted is a hybrid resistant to gray wall).

So yes, why not start with these improvements rather than with Jubilee's potential for known disorders?

Carolina Gold release notice:
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/pro...olina-Gold.pdf

The release notices for the two immediate parents of Carolina Gold:
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/pro...lease-NC1Y.pdf
and
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/pro...lease-NC2Y.pdf

I think when we use a commercially released hybrid that still is in circulation, we should at least acknowledge our use of the germplasm in our projects if we share seeds with others.

I do not intend, at this time, to sell the seeds from this project, but I might eventually do that. My initial intent is to develop a high beta carotene, large fruited determinate as a gift to a couple of friends of mine in Anguilla, BWI.

Dr. Randy Gardner comes to this tomato board occassionally. He has friends here as well. I hope he will weigh in on the appropriate way to acknowledge the use of his germplasm (or the use of other professionals' seed lines) when we amateurs use them.

[Tom Wagner]

Many topics and ....sub-topics, actually, here. I am supposed to me a moderator here but sometimes I fail to post or answer as much as perhaps I should...

Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1 to 59 years) growout projects.

Since I am the epitome of a fuddy-duddy*...bear in mind....my 59 years of breeding is taking a toil on me.

The Blue tomatoes that have tangerine flesh has blue in the sun mediated skin and down into the pericarp but a little. The idea I have is to reduce the sizes more so that the blue (anthocyanin) almost penetrates to the locule wall. Blue and Gold is a super combination. I have seeded (sown) my Blue Golds for evaluation and breeding. I am not releasing these until a year or so.

I understand Craig...Minnesota Mato is looking for a gold (tangerine) "super healthy paste tomato" and is looking for ideas for breeding lines to use. Ideas presented later in this message.

Travis so kindly posted about the Carolina Gold. It would be a great place to start but as 'Mato' suggested...maybe picking up where some other breeders left off would be a valid beginning rather than starting with Jubilee.

I have played around with Carolina Gold since the mid 90's when it first was available to me as NC 9267....really? It is twenty years old? I have it selfed out to quite a few filial generations but I found that a sibling hybrid...NC 93190 was more to my liking in California. I have a Gold Roma that has NC 93190 in some ten year old germplasm as an F-5. The pedigree is as follows:

F-3 (Mountain Gold x F-3 (Sundrop x Yellow Banana) x NC 93190 hybrid taken to the F-5 seed. That seed is from 14 years ago. I am sure the seed is viable but I would have to find it.

Sundrop - Breeder and vendor: W. Atlee Burpee Co. Characteristics: open pollinated, globe-shaped, orange-fleshed fruit; indeterminate vine. Similar: Basket Pak for size, but orange. Adaptation: wide. 1985.

Another gold variety I have is an F-5 from the cross (F-3 EF 50) x Mountain Gold. This one has excellent yields of gold globes that are 100% rin. The gold doesn't show up until the fruit is super fully ripe...the gold shows up first in the middle of the fruit, however the surface is still quite green since it is an non-ripener. Making crosses with this clone and any other Jubilee derived clone would produce some extra firm hybrids with extended shelf life.

EF 50 (XPH 12050) -Hybrid Breeder and vendor: Asgrow. Characteristics: medium tall determinate vine, uniform shouldered flattened globe, very firm fruit. Resistance: verticillium wilt race 1, fusarium wilt races 1 and 2, alternaria stem canker, gray leaf spot. 1993.

I can't believe that EF 50 has been around for twenty years. It was a great tomato in trial plots in California and it had a rin parent, accounting for the Extra Firm (EF) trait.

Thinking back to the mid nineties when Mountain Gold was hard to grow in the San Joaquin Valley due to nematode pressure. I crossed the nematode resistant Olympic (a red hybrid) with Mountain Gold...selected for nematode resistance and gold flesh...and then back-crossed to Mountain Gold to get an excellent Mountain Gold type with homozygous nematode resistance. This clone was further selected in Bakersfield for a jointless pedicel. This seed is fifteen years old and I know I have newer seed somewhere. Only 7 seed left in the original packet...since I have sown seed from it for years.



I grew an F-1 hybrid plant out during the summer of '95 from the cross of Mountain Gold x Tangerine Zebra...an F-3 at the time of Sundrop x Turk's Turban...a Green Zebra type that has catfacing resembling the squash of the same name. I have some F-2 seed of that which would be a great place to start for flavor. The fruits were tangerine with a slight stripe visible when the fruits were unripe. My notes say "Excellent Flavor" from a late harvest of November 17, 1995 at the intersection of Interstate 5 and Shields Avenue. Nothing but Almonds there now.

Another F-2 seed stash is from the hybrid of Green Nails and Golden Jubilee. This hybrid produced a roma bicolor back about five years ago. The F-2 seedlings should segregate for gold, yellow, green, brown, etc. The shapes should be from very long romas to round and everything in-between.



*fuddy-duddy

- a conservative who is old-fashioned or dull in attitude or appearance; "you may accuse me of being and old fuddy-duddy trying to stop young people having fun"colloquialism - a colloquial expression; characteristic of spoken or written communication that seeks to imitate informal speech
conservative, conservativist - a person who is reluctant to accept changes and new ideas

Actually, I would hope young folks could have fun with tomato breeding!

Tom Wagner

[Minnesota Mato]

Several questions after reading everyones post:

What is the appropriate way to acknowledge the use of a breeders germplasm? I have no intention of selling anything at this time but I would like to know proper etiquette.

I thought I had alot of seeds, a couple hundred differant pepper types and now my tomato seeds are expanding exponentially. I bought a mini refrigerator just to keep them in. I was wondering, tom, where you keep all your seeds? Do you have an underground vault or a walkin cooler or something? with so many differant crosses how do you keep track of them. Do you number everything and keep notes.

I just bought blue match, russian cossack, and shadow boxing from your web page. Most everything is blue, that being the curant trend, do you ever sell any of the above mentioned?

Lastly I think you have to find a new word, fuddy-duddy doesn't apply according the definition. I think to do what you do you have to adapt constantly and have new ideas. I also bought some potato seeds and I know alot of fuddy-duddys who only believe in seed potatoes not potato seeds.

[Tom Wagner]

What is the appropriate way to acknowledge the use of a breeders germplasm?

That is a good question. I had struggled with that for years. I would sign MTA's (Material Transfer Agreements) to obtain germplasm from other breeders...usually University base breeders and the agreement was that I would not sell that seed to another party. It had been generally accepted that once that controlled variety was used in breeding to create yet another variety...no compensation was required back to the University. The push for PVP or patents have dried up many accessions from ever being available. North Carolina, Florida, and Oregon have been good about making germplasm obtainable. Large seed companies hardly ever allow access to their inbreds....It generally was up to the individual to to take the hybrids and breed from them.

Small private breeders as myself have had little protection from others using inbreds for breeding purposes. If those that use it want to acknowledge the history...that is about the best you can expect. I have gradually been swayed to make my varieties Open Source.

I have way too many seeds to bother about putting them is special storage. I have boxes and boxes of seed in my condo, garage, storage units...and try to grow out old seed collections from time to time to renew the seed stock for better germination. Yes, I number the seeds along with sow dates so that I can trace back year after year and format a limited amount of info for descriptions of the fruit, etc.

As far as selling special collections of my seeds, I try to introduce a few each year. The ones I described in the earlier post have not been released....but since I wrote about them...I should sow some seed just to make sure I have some new seed in case I promote them next year. New names need to be attached because folks don't follow pedigree info like I do.

I am thinking about putting together a link to my website that allows folks to view the ancestry of many of my tomatoes. There is more likelihood that my ancestry page for potatoes would be launched first, since that is where my energy is focused most often. I have the potato pedigree database for my potato breeding already established.

Major contributing ancestors (MCAs) can be found in many popular breeds of vegetables. I have some like BURGESS CRACKPROOF that occurs many times in the extended genetic history. In potatoes...Busola occurs 94 times just on one side of the ancestry of my Nordic October....by the time it gets down to Azule Rose...it appears 368 times in the ancestry chart.

[Fusion_power]

This is technically doable given that tangerine is on chromosome 10 and beta cartotene is on chromosome 6. I would suggest using flower color as one of your selection criteria given that tangerine modifies it.

DarJones

[Minnesota Mato]

I have found pages with all the recessive and dominant genes but where do you find what chromosome # they are on?

[Fusion_power]

Dig around in the accessions area of TGRC. If you search for Tangerine, you will find accessions that have it and you can then click on the link for the gene and see details of chromsome mapping. You can do the same for beta carotene. Be careful about using the gene query tool, there are a lot of genes that are not in it.

DarJones

[crmauch]

3rd time is hopefully the charm (lost my submission twice due to my own stupidity).

I'm also interested in breeding a higher beta-carotene paste tomato.

I think the tangerine gene (t) might supress beta cartene production. Look at tables 1 and 4 in this article by Tomes http://www.genetics.org/content/62/4/769.full.pdf

It does appear that B (gene that increases beta carotene) and Del (which increases delta carotene) produces more beta carotene when together than the B gene alone (look at Table 1): http://www.genetics.org/content/56/2/227.full.pdf

My struggle is this - how as an amateur am I going to know if a tomato has a higher beta-carotene content?