alfalfa tea vs neptune's harvest?

[tjg911]

i googled this and read a bit about alfalfa tea (AT). it seems AT is used for roses and other flowers but i did not read that it's used for vegetables as much as flowers (OPINIONS?). i bought a 50 pound bag of alfalfa pellets today at blue seal feed. i'm not sure if i want to make tea from it vs using neptune's harvest fish emulsion (NH) for fertilizing to address a specific problem described below.

i have not done a soil test so i am ASSUMING i have a nitrogen problem based upon experience. my garden is organic and 1200 sq feet. last fall (early november) i asked for 4 yards of horse manure but he brought 5 yards! frankly 4 was probably a bit much 5 is too much, it was about 6" thick on the garden before tilling! it appeared to be at least 50% saw dust, maybe as high as 75%. it was hot and steaming so i figured there was a lot of urine which is high in nitrogen (N) in it. you could see horse droppings (N) but i was concerned that at least 1/2 was saw dust (carbon). i tilled it in. the garlic bed did not get any of this as i was concerned it may be too hot for the cloves i'd be planting in a few days.

fast forward to today and my garlic looks great but all the other plants don't. i suspect the nitrogen in the soil is being used to break down the saw dust (carbon). my onions were planted out 4/12 and they have doubled to 4-6" and are a tiny bit yellowish and seem to be small. my cabbages are now light green, i think they were a little darker a week or so ago. peas plants were planted out 4/12 have grown from 3" transplants to 6-7" and definitely are yellowish seems they should be taller. beets and radishes look ok colorwise, the beets are still small and the radishes just a bit pale (not dark green) both seeded 4/12. my red lettuce looks ok the green lettuce is yellowish (but this variety is not a dark green but is usually a little on the pale side but it is paler than normal) and not growing well. parsley is not growing well. the past week it has been cold some nights down to 30's with frosts but equally sunny/overcast, maybe the temperatures are holding back growth but all these crops do well in cool weather, prior to a week ago it was warm so it has not been cold for the past 4 weeks these plants were put out or seeded.

last night i added 2 pounds of blood meal to the onion bed (50 sq ft) and watered it in, the directions were for a heavy N feed use 4 pounds for 100 sq ft. also last night we had 1" of rain. unfortunately about 20 minutes after doing this i read at the allium forum that bloodmeal takes a few weeks to break down. bulbing for the onions starts in about 5 weeks (around 6/20) and you need large plants by the time bulbing starts. i need to get the onions to grow now not 3 weeks from now!

i normally don't fertilize too much - once every 2 weeks i foliar spray with neptune's harvest (NH) except for alliums they get it 1 time per month.

in the allium forum alfalfa tea was suggested for a N boost. again no soil test and i read too much N can effect growth tho i thought it only caused excessive green growth but i got the impression that it can stunt plants due to salts in manure/urine but remember that manure was added in november. add to that the bloodmeal so i am hesitant to use the alfalfa pellets to make AT as i may be putting too much N into the onion bed. i am thinking that perhaps fertilizing with NH every week by watering them with NH vs foliar spraying will add the N-P-K that will help the plants grow (OPINIONS?) vs chancing over doing the N with the tea that takes several days to make and i may need gallons to water all these various plants. i have a 30 gallon trash can i could use to brew the AT but.... so fertilizing with NH is easy, making AT takes time and i have zero experience with using AT (OPINIONS ABOUT AT?).

i wonder what others think about the saw dust/carbon vs the N in the soil locking up the N causing these plants to be small and a bit yellowish. if AT is highly touted i'll consider it but right now i am leaning towards returning it and using the $15 to get another gallon of NH which costs about $40. NH fish fertilizer is 2-4-1 which is what i have and am using now the fish and seaweed emulsion i usually use which is 2-3-1.

i fear i may lose the garden. i grow 75 pounds of onions, i have not bought onions for years. i eat out of the garden all summer buying little in the stores and keep many crops over winter. if the garden is a failure i will lose organic produce i get for free vs having to buy non organic at the grocery stores at a huge cost. i have broccoli and chard about to go out. tomatoes in 3 weeks. cukes, pole beans (i make pickles from both those), peppers (freeze), yellow squash (i freeze) butternut squash i keep all winter (dozens of them) all due to be growing in june. i eat lots of parsley. successive planting of lettuce and cabbage all season. the only think i feel confident about is a good garlic harvest. if the garden is failing i considered plowing it all under in july and planting different plants to be tilled under to enrich the soil (green manures).

what do you think?

[John3]

Do you have have any corn growing or okra?

[David Marek]

I almost said this last, but moved it to the start- Get a soil nutrient and PH test so you know what is going on and if you will be able to fix it this year. When growing in pots, I have made situations worse by trying to correct a deficiency, only to end up with a different toxicity issue.

Look on the fertilizer/ supplement label (neptune's harvest and others) for the highest amount of nitrate nitrogen, which is more readily available than urea and even ammonium. As mentioned in the other threads/ postings, consider your feelings for using a water soluble fertilizer vs. eating veggies grown with pesticides.

Blood meal and alfalfa meal are both undecomposed products, thus the delay of available N (you already know about that).

For the organic route, well finished compost or mushroom compost spread on the surface and watered in might leach some N down in time to save your plants. The peppers might be okay, maybe even set more fruit, with less N.

Keep in mind the plants will be in a weakened state for a while and more susceptible to insects and disease. I have done this when growing in small pots and the outcome was not good. I finally decided I just had plain old too much undecomposed organic matter (I was trying to grow gasses in rotting leaves instead of peat- oops).

Do you have room to plant a temporary garden somewhere else? That way you could avoid pest buildup/ carryover in your main area, allowing for more success next year.

I have been busy planting, but I'll try to keep an eye on this. Best of luck.

[tjg911]

no i do not grow okra or corn.

my compost had some of that manure saw dust added to it so i am not too sure my compost is ok to use! i know i should do a soil test but i never trusted those $10 or $15 soil test kits. i used them long time ago and felt they were bs after i paid for a real comprehensive test. that takes weeks and cost $50 10 years ago.

NH is a concentrate and water soluable. i want to water the plants vs spraying as i can give more fertilizer that way.



Keep in mind the plants will be in a weakened state for a while and more susceptible to insects and disease. yes this is why i am a bit hesitant to just over fertilizer plants effected.

there is nowhere to plant a temporary garden. while i have 2 acres you can't just decide to plant veggies HERE or over THERE! there's lawn, there's wild areas with extensive weed and hay root systems, tree roots and ROCKS! LOTS of rocks, you can't just dig in this ground it is a lot of work you just don't decide to start another garden, that won't work without a backhoe which i don't have nor do i want to start that type of work. a huge exacvator dug for an hour to establish this garden to remove the large rocks. he did not get the ones that were 1.5' X 2' as they were to small for him to find and they are hard to get out by hand trust me i have.

i'm pretty po'ed. if all the other plants out and about to go out experience this i'm not gardening this year. it's tons of work when it is going right and i just don't have the heart to work so hard and get nothing. green manures and tilling with a dose of cow manure for N will be the gardening season. a break like this may just tip me over the edge and quit for good. i really like growing plants in the basement but i hate the work in the garden after they go out, out in the sun, the heat, the bugs, the time. it's too much, i really am getting tired of it all and now this. well safe to say i am totally po'ed. life is too short to slave away at this maybe this is the break. i doubt i mean that come next year but right now i am so disgusted i don't really care about anything. wait til you see my next thread i start!

[John3]

If you did was going to ask if they where growing really fast and green - which means the soil is full for nitrogen and they are using it up.

[neoguy]

Tom,

I understand your angst and frustration.

For the first time, last year I started using alfalfa meal and alfalfa tea. By the end of the season the soil was beautiful, soft and crumbly. I spread the meal by hand over the soil prior to planting, then digging it in (I realize you are beyond this point). Then, I would make a tea out of 4-5 cups of meal in a 5 gallon bucket. I'd let it sit for a couple of days, but I'd stir it frequently, I use a paint mixer attached to a drill. After 2 days I'd add some fish emulsion, molasses, or both, let sit another day and then add to the garden. About 1-2 cups of concentrate per gallon. I'm sure you could add the concentrate directly into the soil as a drench without harm.

I not an expert nor have I professed to be and I realize you're looking for a quick solution to your immediate problem, I suggest you try the alfalfa tea every 7-10 days.

Originally Posted by tjg911

no i do not grow okra or corn.

my compost had some of that manure saw dust added to it so i am not too sure my compost is ok to use! i know i should do a soil test but i never trusted those $10 or $15 soil test kits. i used them long time ago and felt they were bs after i paid for a real comprehensive test. that takes weeks and cost $50 10 years ago.

NH is a concentrate and water soluable. i want to water the plants vs spraying as i can give more fertilizer that way.



Keep in mind the plants will be in a weakened state for a while and more susceptible to insects and disease. yes this is why i am a bit hesitant to just over fertilizer plants effected.

there is nowhere to plant a temporary garden. while i have 2 acres you can't just decide to plant veggies HERE or over THERE! there's lawn, there's wild areas with extensive weed and hay root systems, tree roots and ROCKS! LOTS of rocks, you can't just dig in this ground it is a lot of work you just don't decide to start another garden, that won't work without a backhoe which i don't have nor do i want to start that type of work. a huge exacvator dug for an hour to establish this garden to remove the large rocks. he did not get the ones that were 1.5' X 2' as they were to small for him to find and they are hard to get out by hand trust me i have.

i'm pretty po'ed. if all the other plants out and about to go out experience this i'm not gardening this year. it's tons of work when it is going right and i just don't have the heart to work so hard and get nothing. green manures and tilling with a dose of cow manure for N will be the gardening season. a break like this may just tip me over the edge and quit for good. i really like growing plants in the basement but i hate the work in the garden after they go out, out in the sun, the heat, the bugs, the time. it's too much, i really am getting tired of it all and now this. well safe to say i am totally po'ed. life is too short to slave away at this maybe this is the break. i doubt i mean that come next year but right now i am so disgusted i don't really care about anything. wait til you see my next thread i start!

[tjg911]

Originally Posted by neoguy

Tom,

I understand your angst and frustration.

For the first time, last year I started using alfalfa meal and alfalfa tea. By the end of the season the soil was beautiful, soft and crumbly. I spread the meal by hand over the soil prior to planting, then digging it in (I realize you are beyond this point). Then, I would make a tea out of 4-5 cups of meal in a 5 gallon bucket. I'd let it sit for a couple of days, but I'd stir it frequently, I use a paint mixer attached to a drill. After 2 days I'd add some fish emulsion, molasses, or both, let sit another day and then add to the garden. About 1-2 cups of concentrate per gallon. I'm sure you could add the concentrate directly into the soil as a drench without harm.

I not an expert nor have I professed to be and I realize you're looking for a quick solution to your immediate problem, I suggest you try the alfalfa tea every 7-10 days.

neoguy,

so that tea is a concentrate? where did you buy the alfalfa and what was it called? i'm wondering if you used the same thing i bought in the 50 pound bag of alfalfa pellets?

i bought a 50 pound bag of alfalfa pellets the other day. after reading thru google searches i returned them. the tea sounds disgusting (they say it smells like a cross between vomit and dog $hit!) and i see it almost always being used on roses and flowers. i've used compost tea with good results but alfalfa sounds like trouble. however at this point i may fall back on it, keep reading!

so i returned the pellets and bought a soil test kit. frankly it makes sense to know the problem before treating it. there was a 1 time test for n-p-k for $5 or a 10 test kit for $20 made by ferry morse a well known name located in ct.

what a crock of manure! i spent from 12:30 until 5 pm reading the kit before buying it, getting 2 soil samples and then doing tests - a ph test, 2 nitrogen tests, a phosphorus and potassium test. the ph looks to be 7.0 to 7.25 a bit high. the nitrogen was not even on the color chart! same for phosphorous. the potassium test was impossible to grade. this is why i did not want to bother with a soil test. i've used these before and then i've had good soil tests run and they cost real money. a do it your self kit is a toy imo. besides with some of the garden planted it is not easy to add any amendments at this point even to unplanted sections as there's so little time for them to work before plants will be put there. i did not discover this problem until plants were not growing well.

so i am back to square 1. i have no idea what the issue is (too much N can stunt plants as well as too little). i have had such good soil i grow anything and it does well. this is such a kick in the a$$ and i paid for the damage. when i took soil samples all the small pieces of wood in the soil!

i guess i'll try the NH fertilizer watering the plants vs spraying them and see what happens at this point i don't know what else to do. i doubt i'll have an onion harvest this year, i love pulling onions and drying them it's such a ritual i love to do. if plants respond to NH good if not then disaster.

i may rebuy that bag of alfalfa pellets it's only about $14. how often would you water the plants with the tea, can you overdo it? so 1-2 cups of tea added to 1 gallon of water? at that rate 5 gallons of tea would be a good amount to make as it'll do a lot of watering. any tips on using the tea or making it would be appreciated!

[neoguy]

Originally Posted by tjg911

neoguy,

so that tea is a concentrate? where did you buy the alfalfa and what was it called? i'm wondering if you used the same thing i bought in the 50 pound bag of alfalfa pellets?

Tom, you can use it as a concentrate or dilute it. I'd probably use it full strength the first couple of times and then start diluting it.

i bought a 50 pound bag of alfalfa pellets the other day. after reading thru google searches i returned them. the tea sounds disgusting (they say it smells like a cross between vomit and dog $hit!) and i see it almost always being used on roses and flowers. i've used compost tea with good results but alfalfa sounds like trouble. however at this point i may fall back on it, keep reading!

My understanding is alfalfa meal is the same as the pellets only in a different form, the pellets are compressed, the meal is just ground alfalfa. The pellets will expand with exposure to moisture but they work the same way. I'd use the pellets the same as the meal, soak and stir for a couple of days, add molasses if you wish and feed the soil.

so i returned the pellets and bought a soil test kit. frankly it makes sense to know the problem before treating it. there was a 1 time test for n-p-k for $5 or a 10 test kit for $20 made by ferry morse a well known name located in ct.

I know I'll catch the wrath of many gardeners, but I've never had a soil test done, just can't afford it. I figure if I add compost and other organic material to the garden I'll be OK. Keeping my fingers crossed.

i may rebuy that bag of alfalfa pellets it's only about $14. how often would you water the plants with the tea, can you overdo it? so 1-2 cups of tea added to 1 gallon of water? at that rate 5 gallons of tea would be a good amount to make as it'll do a lot of watering. any tips on using the tea or making it would be appreciated!

I water the plants about every 7 days with the alfalfa tea. I sometimes use a full concentrate if I feel the plant(s) needs it, or I dilute later in the growing season. I don't think you can over do alfalfa tea.

By the way, see the previous post about making it, it really is very easy. Oh, and the aroma may be an acquired taste/smell, just like Scotch.

[David Marek]

Originally Posted by tjg911

there is nowhere to plant a temporary garden. while i have 2 acres you can't just decide to plant veggies HERE or over THERE! there's lawn, there's wild areas with extensive weed and hay root systems, tree roots and ROCKS! LOTS of rocks, you can't just dig in this ground it is a lot of work you just don't decide to start another garden, that won't work without a backhoe which i don't have nor do i want to start that type of work. a huge exacvator dug for an hour to establish this garden to remove the large rocks. he did not get the ones that were 1.5' X 2' as they were to small for him to find and they are hard to get out by hand trust me i have.

Sorry, forgot about the rocks. Not so many of them on the prairie. Looks like blood meal or soybean or cottonseed meal is your best bet. I would still encourage use of alfalfa but now might not be the best time.

Good site.
www.mofga.org/

www.mofga.org/.../MOFGA%20FS%208%20Providing%20Nitrogen%20to%20Crops.pdf

-you might need to copy and paste the links in a search

[tjg911]

thanks neoguy and david, i'll print this.

broccoli and chard went out today. lettuce (red) looks wonderful.

a raccoon was spotted at 1 am and i thought it was on the fence! sure enough that sob dug into the peas mulched with leaves and tore up plants and tore up 1 onion plant. all i need is this crap. never had a coon problem and if he damages anything else i WILL trap and KILL him with EXTREME prejudice (from a movie if you recall).

[tjg911]

Originally Posted by David Marek

Sorry, forgot about the rocks. Not so many of them on the prairie. Looks like blood meal or soybean or cottonseed meal is your best bet. I would still encourage use of alfalfa but now might not be the best time.

Good site.
www.mofga.org/

www.mofga.org/.../MOFGA%20FS%208%20Providing%20Nitrogen%20to%20Crops.pdf

-you might need to copy and paste the links in a search

dave,

any better links? the 1st doesn't have any info and the 2nd does not work.

thanks,

tom

[dice]

I have used alfalfa meal, but I mostly broadcast it and spaded
it in. Once I just spread it on top and then an inch of soil on
top of that (to keep it from blowing away in the wind). I do add
it to compost tea (couple of handfuls in with maybe a gallon
of homemade compost, plus kelp, molasses, etc, all in a 5-gallon
bucket).

I was not really on the clock for any of this stuff. It was either
winter or spring, months or weeks before planting, so there was
plenty of time for nutrients in the alfalfa to become available
in the soil. The only exception was the compost tea, which
I used at different times during the summer as a tonic.

I think the nitrogen in the liquid fish fertilizer will become
available in a maximum of two weeks, so that might be best
for your sawdusted beds. It is simply more work over the season,
since you need to put on more every couple of weeks. With
alfalfa or blood meal, you can just spread it around and forget
it. You get enough rain out there to wash the nutrients in it
down into the soil.

[David Marek]

Copy and paste and it should be the first one that comes up on a google search: mofga providing nitrogen to organic crops.

It is a PDF document.

I found it by searching something like "supplemental organic nitrogen source for nitrogen deficiency caused by too much organic matter being incorporated into the soil".

Sometimes you just need to tell it everything you need to know.

Also... maybe it would be helpful if I actually explain my method. I spread both compost and uncomposted material (leaves, straw, weeds that have not flowered, etc) on the surface as they become available, but usually in the fall or during down time. It keeps the soil cooler so I rake the mulch to the side in advance to allow the sun to warm the soil for squash, corn and tomatoes. I then plant down into the soil, leaving the mulch on the side for a while. Initially, this method can be troublesome on heavy clay- it becomes very gooey.

I add blood meal for corn and plant tone for squash when I plant them.

[tjg911]

thanks dave clicking on the link google gave did bring up the pdf. when i copied and pasted the address into the browser the other day it could not find the pdf.

[Alberta]

tjg,
I use alfalfa pellets throughout my garden beds, yes Roses love them, but so do clematis and day lilies. I also have put some down in my 2 onion beds, and though I know its impossible, I could have sworn I saw a difference in the plants within a few days. I also make the tea in 5 gallon buckets, sure does smell like s@%t,but its wonderful stuff in the long run. This year my tomatoes, eggplants and peppers will get some pellets, not along just scattered throughout the beds to see how they react. Hope that helps you some.

Alberta