"Low-acid" tomatoes - Is there such a thing?

lakshmi · March 28, 2007

I see it written in descriptions of tomato varieties but I've also read that those tomatoes only have a higher sugar content and so you don't taste the acid as much.

I'd like to know of any varieties that may actually be low acid and which of these have a low acid taste (I presume pinks, oranges for taste):

Aunt Gertie's Gold
Beefsteak
Black From Tula
Brandywine
Cherokee Green
Cherokee Purple
Cosmonaut Volokov
Jaune Flammee
Kellogg's Breakfast
Lime Green Salad

I presume all cherry varieties tend to taste low acid?

Black Cherry
Bloody Butcher
Galina's Yellow
Japanese Black Trifele
Riesentraube
Sungold O.P.

Thanks,
Lakshmi

**nctomatoman** · March 28, 2007

Hey Lakshmi - a few things...tests have been done that show that the pH range of tomatoes is very, very narrow - for all intents and purposes, and within the range of having any particular impact, the acidity level is pretty much the same across all varieties. I've seen mentioned that Jet Star hybrid is a bit lower in acid and requires a bit more acid added if canned - but I've not seen the pH results. So it really is all about the particular balance of sugars and acids in a particular variety, along with the multitude of various low lever flavor components, that deliver the flavor and sensation of acid/sour/sweet/bitter. To make things even a bit more complex, where you grow it, how you grow it, and which season also impact the flavor - and even more important, how each person's unique set of taste buds perceive the flavor.

So, of those on your list, the acidities are essentially the same. To my taste buds, Aunt Gertie's Gold and Jaune Flamme are the most tart (so taste the most acidic to me). The rest are anywhere from mild bordering on bland to intense and well balanced to on the sweet side. But then again, those are just my taste buds and how I perceived the flavor on the particular fruit I tasted.

Hope that helps!

**carolyn137** · March 28, 2007

I think Craig has covered this issue well.

And I have seen the pH values for Jet Star and it's perhaps the only one for which the words low acid might be used, but not in terms of taste. The pH's of all those supposed low acid red round varieties that were introduced abput 20 years ago was checked when so many cases of botulism appeared from using those varieties and the open water bath method of canning.

In a way, it was a situation that when turned around did good b'c all Coop Extentions and similar then told all canners that they had to acidify the contents of ALL varieties of tomatoes when using that open water bath method. Because who knows who is using what for canning and even if the pH is known.

An acidic envionment is needed to help inactivate botulism spores, and that was the problem.

High and low acidity are not the primary determinates of taste. Over 400 organic compounds have been IDed via mass spectroscopy as being invovled with taste and the genes that specify them had not been IDed last time I did some reading in the area.

When someone says they want a high acid tomato I explain as Craig has done above and then I suggest they might want to use the words strong or assertive taste.

When someone asks about low acid tomatoes I also explain that and suggest they use words like mild, bland,

, pleasant, etc.

And since taste is a percetion and also has a human genetic component re the person doing the tasting, as well as all the other variables that Craig mentioned, I'm always very hesitant to share with someone else what they might taste, based on what I taste.

For instance, most folks think that pastel tomatoes are low acid, they aren't as has been noted, and Aunt Gertie's Gold has one of the most assertive tastes I've tasted and I love it.

So it's impossible to make generalizations about pH unless one spends time Googling and can find the lists where certain varieties have been tested, and even then, as craig said, all varieties tested are pretty much the same.

BR · March 28, 2007

Carolyn... what do you mean by "open" water bath? Is that where they don't cover the jars completely with water and leave the lids off while processing?

lakshmi · March 28, 2007

I asked this question because someone asked me for seeds for a tomato that was "pulpy & not too acid without also being a huge tasteless tomato."

As I haven't yet grown these varieties yet, do any of mine qualify? - Kellogg's Breakfast perhaps?

Thanks,
Lakshmi

Miss_Mudcat · March 29, 2007

Co-op Extention offices did update their information on canning recently and it is in agreement with Craig's and Carolyn's statements. It is not necessary to add lemon juice (or other acidifiers) when Water-bath processing tomatoes.

BR, Boiling Water Bath Method, as opposed to Steam Pressure Method of canning, is where jars are filled and capped, then submerged into boiling water, 212* F, for a prescribed amount of time. With a steam canner, pressure is increased in order to increase the temperature above 212* F. This process is for low-acid veggies like green beans.

Lisa

**carolyn137** · March 29, 2007

Co-op Extention offices did update their information on canning recently and it is in agreement with Craig's and Carolyn's statements. It is not necessary to add lemon juice (or other acidifiers) when Water-bath processing tomatoes.

*****

Lisa, now you've got me confused.

Both Craig and I mentioned acidifying tomatoes to be canned if the open water bath method was used. Last I knew the Ball Canning book said the same.

And now you say that your Coop Ext says it is NOT necessary to acidify tomatoes? Which is the opposite of what Craig and I have said.

After all the botulism cases due to the use of those low pH tomato varieties that were introduced about 20 years ago, and the fact that the internal pH of most tomato varieties is NOT known, I'm puzzled by this reversal in a long standing policy that acidification should be used for tomatoes ( not necessary when sterilized with a pressure cooker).

I haven't canned tomatoes since I helped my mother can anything and everything when I was a kid, but if I were canning tomatoes, sauce, etc., these days I know that I'd for sure acidify the contents. But then as a retired Microbiologist I have a healthy respect for Clostridium botulinum and what it can do and I don't mean Botox injections.

feldon30 · March 29, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakshmi

I asked this question because someone asked me for seeds for a tomato that was "pulpy & not too acid without also being a huge tasteless tomato."

I find most people don't really know what they want, or how to ask for it.

BR · March 29, 2007

Miss Mudcat... I'm firmiliar with BWB and Pressure Canning. My question was with the "open" water bath comment. I saw a Canadian chef on TV once can tomatoes by first boiling the tomatoes, putting them in jars, standiing the jars in boiling water with the lids off (not completely covered with water). I've always completely covered the jars with water so I thought this was odd.When I saw Carolyn's post say "open" water bath I thought maybe that's what she was referring to.

melody · March 29, 2007

I called my Extension Office today and asked what the most current advice was...

According to the UK Extension Office, tomatoes canned in a water bath should have 2 tablespoons of bottled lemon juice added per quart.

If it is a recipe that calls for vinegar, 5% should be used.

I do this anyway....regardless of the type of tomatoes. Most of my canned goods are gifts for family and friends, and I certainly do not want to be responsible for causing any sickness. I err on the side of caution...and even if someone says you can go without, I would add anyway....small price to pay for peace of mind. I'm pretty anal about my canning supplies and conditions...

**Lee** · March 29, 2007

This thread has taken two paths... both good information... however I will hop back on the original request....

Quote:

"pulpy & not too acid without also being a huge tasteless tomato."

I would describe this as meaty and sweet. Earl's Faux (grown by Earl) would
definitely meet this criteria. Orange Heirloom is another.

Lee

Miss_Mudcat · March 29, 2007

I must apologize for 1) I'm certain I read just last year tomatoes vary very little in acidity and that adding lemon juice (or whatever) was no longer necessary - evidently misinformation; and 2) because of that bias, I mis-read what Carolyn and Craig were saying. Below is a quote from a MN Cooperative:

"Tomatoes are generally considered a high acid food item with a pH below 4.6. Unfortunately, a lot of misinformation has been printed in the popular press about "low acid" tomatoes referring to those with a sweet, non-tart taste. These tomatoes are often white, yellow, or pink in color but are not low in acid content. The higher sugar masks the acidic flavor.Researchers at USDA and at the University of Minnesota have found that most underripe to ripe, cooked tomatoes have a pH below 4.6. Unfortunately, a few varieties may have a pH above or close to 4.6. These include Ace, Ace 55VF, Beefmaster Hybrid, Big Early Hybrid, Big Girl, Big Set, Burpee VF Hybrid, Cal Ace, Delicious, Fireball, Garden State, Royal Chico, and San Marzano. Some of these are grown for commercial purposes and are not found in home gardens. However, safely canning these varieties requires additional acid for water bath processing or a pressure canning process similar to low acid vegetables."

I guess I have been very lucky. I've been canning and eating canned tomatoes literally for as long as I can remember. My grandmother, mother nor I have ever used lemon juice in our tomatoes. I suppose I will now have to reconsider that!

Lisa

**nctomatoman** · March 29, 2007

We've been canning tomatoes (typically a mix of whatever is ripe at the time) for about 5 years - we use the water bath method (wash everything well with soapy hot water - rings, bands, jars) - peel the tomatoes by dipping into hot, then ice, water, then cut into quarters, fill the jars into which we've added some salt and lemon juice, and use the water bath method (not under pressure) for the prescribed time (45 min rings a bell) - we've kept them this way up to a year or more, never a problem.

Suze · March 29, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakshmi

I asked this question because someone asked me for seeds for a tomato that was "pulpy & not too acid without also being a huge tasteless tomato."

As I haven't yet grown these varieties yet, do any of mine qualify? - Kellogg's Breakfast perhaps?

KB would likely be the closest to what you describe on your list. Not really sure what is meant by "pulpy". Fleshy, w/o being too seedy?

Green Giant might be one this person would like. I find the taste to be excellent, sweet without being bland. Kalman's Hungarian Pink also comes to mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BR

My question was with the "open" water bath comment. I saw a Canadian chef on TV once can tomatoes by first boiling the tomatoes, putting them in jars, standiing the jars in boiling water with the lids off (not completely covered with water).

Open water bath = BWB. Occasionally, folks say "open" instead of "boiling".

Even though it's still sometimes used, what you saw on the show isn't a recommended safe method.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss_Mudcat

I guess I have been very lucky. I've been canning and eating canned tomatoes literally for as long as I can remember. My grandmother, mother nor I have ever used lemon juice in our tomatoes. I suppose I will now have to reconsider that!

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=63

The Ball Blue Book is also great, if you don't have one.

korney19 · March 31, 2007

It's a tough question to answer because there's Brix and pH. I had a couple charts of both Brix and pH of many heirloom varieties but these can change with growing conditions, methods, season-to-season, etc.

I'll try to look at the list again & see if I have any numbers for ones on your list.

March 28, 2007	#1
lakshmi Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montreal Posts: 78	"Low-acid" tomatoes - Is there such a thing? I see it written in descriptions of tomato varieties but I've also read that those tomatoes only have a higher sugar content and so you don't taste the acid as much. I'd like to know of any varieties that may actually be low acid and which of these have a low acid taste (I presume pinks, oranges for taste): Aunt Gertie's Gold Beefsteak Black From Tula Brandywine Cherokee Green Cherokee Purple Cosmonaut Volokov Jaune Flammee Kellogg's Breakfast Lime Green Salad I presume all cherry varieties tend to taste low acid? Black Cherry Bloody Butcher Galina's Yellow Japanese Black Trifele Riesentraube Sungold O.P. Thanks, Lakshmi __________________ My dogs have me well trained

March 28, 2007	#2
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Hey Lakshmi - a few things...tests have been done that show that the pH range of tomatoes is very, very narrow - for all intents and purposes, and within the range of having any particular impact, the acidity level is pretty much the same across all varieties. I've seen mentioned that Jet Star hybrid is a bit lower in acid and requires a bit more acid added if canned - but I've not seen the pH results. So it really is all about the particular balance of sugars and acids in a particular variety, along with the multitude of various low lever flavor components, that deliver the flavor and sensation of acid/sour/sweet/bitter. To make things even a bit more complex, where you grow it, how you grow it, and which season also impact the flavor - and even more important, how each person's unique set of taste buds perceive the flavor. So, of those on your list, the acidities are essentially the same. To my taste buds, Aunt Gertie's Gold and Jaune Flamme are the most tart (so taste the most acidic to me). The rest are anywhere from mild bordering on bland to intense and well balanced to on the sweet side. But then again, those are just my taste buds and how I perceived the flavor on the particular fruit I tasted. Hope that helps! __________________ Craig

March 28, 2007	#3
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	I think Craig has covered this issue well. And I have seen the pH values for Jet Star and it's perhaps the only one for which the words low acid might be used, but not in terms of taste. The pH's of all those supposed low acid red round varieties that were introduced abput 20 years ago was checked when so many cases of botulism appeared from using those varieties and the open water bath method of canning. In a way, it was a situation that when turned around did good b'c all Coop Extentions and similar then told all canners that they had to acidify the contents of ALL varieties of tomatoes when using that open water bath method. Because who knows who is using what for canning and even if the pH is known. An acidic envionment is needed to help inactivate botulism spores, and that was the problem. High and low acidity are not the primary determinates of taste. Over 400 organic compounds have been IDed via mass spectroscopy as being invovled with taste and the genes that specify them had not been IDed last time I did some reading in the area. When someone says they want a high acid tomato I explain as Craig has done above and then I suggest they might want to use the words strong or assertive taste. When someone asks about low acid tomatoes I also explain that and suggest they use words like mild, bland, , pleasant, etc. And since taste is a percetion and also has a human genetic component re the person doing the tasting, as well as all the other variables that Craig mentioned, I'm always very hesitant to share with someone else what they might taste, based on what I taste. For instance, most folks think that pastel tomatoes are low acid, they aren't as has been noted, and Aunt Gertie's Gold has one of the most assertive tastes I've tasted and I love it. So it's impossible to make generalizations about pH unless one spends time Googling and can find the lists where certain varieties have been tested, and even then, as craig said, all varieties tested are pretty much the same. __________________ Carolyn

March 28, 2007	#5
lakshmi Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Montreal Posts: 78	I asked this question because someone asked me for seeds for a tomato that was "pulpy & not too acid without also being a huge tasteless tomato." As I haven't yet grown these varieties yet, do any of mine qualify? - Kellogg's Breakfast perhaps? Thanks, Lakshmi __________________ My dogs have me well trained

March 29, 2007	#6
Miss_Mudcat Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 366	Co-op Extention offices did update their information on canning recently and it is in agreement with Craig's and Carolyn's statements. It is not necessary to add lemon juice (or other acidifiers) when Water-bath processing tomatoes. BR, Boiling Water Bath Method, as opposed to Steam Pressure Method of canning, is where jars are filled and capped, then submerged into boiling water, 212* F, for a prescribed amount of time. With a steam canner, pressure is increased in order to increase the temperature above 212* F. This process is for low-acid veggies like green beans. Lisa __________________ Farmers don't wear watches; they work until the job is done!

March 28, 2007	#4
BR Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 71	Carolyn... what do you mean by "open" water bath? Is that where they don't cover the jars completely with water and leave the lids off while processing?

March 29, 2007	#10
melody Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Kentucky Posts: 162	I called my Extension Office today and asked what the most current advice was... According to the UK Extension Office, tomatoes canned in a water bath should have 2 tablespoons of bottled lemon juice added per quart. If it is a recipe that calls for vinegar, 5% should be used. I do this anyway....regardless of the type of tomatoes. Most of my canned goods are gifts for family and friends, and I certainly do not want to be responsible for causing any sickness. I err on the side of caution...and even if someone says you can go without, I would add anyway....small price to pay for peace of mind. I'm pretty anal about my canning supplies and conditions...

March 31, 2007	#15
korney19 Buffalo-Niagara Tomato TasteFest™ Co-Founder Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: The Niagara Frontier Posts: 942	It's a tough question to answer because there's Brix and pH. I had a couple charts of both Brix and pH of many heirloom varieties but these can change with growing conditions, methods, season-to-season, etc. I'll try to look at the list again & see if I have any numbers for ones on your list.