How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Hybrid

[Gerardo]

Originally Posted by Zenbaas

Well as much as I love the idea of OP varieties I would be more than willing to try hybrids if they are bred for taste and production instead of what the stereotypical hybrid traditionally represents.

Unfortunately the lack of shipping outside the of the states will in all likelihood be a bigger barrier to trying these out than anything else.

Will be following this thread with interest.

With all of us here, that's an easy barrier to skip over. Figure out what you want, we'll get it to you.

[Zenbaas]

Originally Posted by Gerardo

With all of us here, that's an easy barrier to skip over. Figure out what you want, we'll get it to you.

Didn't think about it that way but yes I guess you are right.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Gerardo

With all of us here, that's an easy barrier to skip over. Figure out what you want, we'll get it to you.

muahahahaha the illicit underground tomato seed trade!

[RJGlew]

Originally Posted by Zenbaas

...they are bred for taste and production instead of what the stereotypical hybrid traditionally represents.

The general stereotype comes from the greenhouse grown tomatoes which end up being sold in our grocery stores. The genetics of these varieties have been optimized for storage & shipping, with little concern for taste. My opinion of these tomatoes changes seasonally, and in the middle of a Zone 3a winter, they are pretty tasty relative to no tomatoes. Recently, folks working with the talented Harry Klee at the University of Florida have successfully identified the characteristics of tomato "good taste" and are working to breed their findings into the traditional GH lines. They have made some of their newer hybrids available for us to try - most notably, Garden Gem F1 which is currently receiving positive taste reviews in other TV threads. Interestingly, Fred's Maglia Rosa is one of the parents of Garden Gem F1.

In my opinion, it is quite wrong to generalize that hybrids available to home growers are less tasty than OPs. Taste is of course individual, and for me, I find many of the hybrids to be just as tasty as the OPs. The breeders who produced the great hybrids like Big Beef F1 and Sun Gold F1 did not focus their efforts on storage & shipping and they produced tomatoes which really taste great. I grow both types - 27 hybrid varieties and 24 OP varieties last summer - so I taste many examples of both through the season. My favourite early tomatoes are Stupice & 0-33, both OPs. My favourite mid season tomatoes are Steak Sandwich F1 & Big Beef F1. As we know, others may not agree with me. :-)

In general, I find hybrids produce more fruit, but will not attempt to quantify this since I don't record weights. I have read some published papers where yields from hybrids were reported up to 40% higher than OPs - Joseph provided a few of these links last year so you can read them if you wish, and I sense this advantage is what he is chasing with his exposed stigma project. Within the group of OPs I grow, only a few of the modern Russian varieties are nearly as productive for me.

Good luck choosing.

[bower]

Fred, best of luck with the hybrid project, and totally hear you on the common sense that the business has to be self-supporting.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by bower

Fred, best of luck with the hybrid project, and totally hear you on the common sense that the business has to be self-supporting.

I agree and Fred thank you for all the hard work you have done to provide folks with great tomatoes. Your business practices and ethics appears to be very solid. Best wishes in all that you do! Thanks again.
Dutch

[Fred Hempel]

Thanks Dutch. I appreciate the kind words. I'm trying!

[NarnianGarden]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

muahahahaha the illicit underground tomato seed trade!

We'll outsmart the competition!

[Fusion_power]

Then there is the guy in New Zealand where the plant police showed up at his door, pulled up his plants in the garden, and gave him a summons to appear in court for his "crimes".

Folks, please think carefully about sharing seed across national boundaries, particularly where diseases can be so easily spread. We do NOT need more invasive species and invasive diseases limiting what we can grow!

[Ed of Somis]

Originally Posted by ddsack

I started out growing only commercial hybrids, but eventually gave them up because they all looked and tasted similar, despite glowing descriptions in the seed catalogs. It seemed that red color and uniform shape along with disease resistance was what people were looking for, so that was what was offered. I still grow an occasional new red hybrid every few years just to see if I am missing anything. I absolutely love Sungold, and if more attention was spent breeding for flavor, color, and thin skins, I would have no problem growing hybrids. The problem lies in that good market qualities don't translate into the best home garden qualities, at least for me. It certainly is possible to deveop good tasting hybrids like Sungold and Purple Haze.

My experiences with hybrids have been similar. Hyped to the max by commercial growers...and usually delivering an inferior tasting product. That being said...I sure love it that I discovered Big Beef 2 years ago. The thoughts and comments of folks on these forums is what I weigh heavily. Most of us have waded through duds that either are not for our locale...or are just inferior. Sharing our experiences (both good and bad)...not only cleanses the soul, but helps our fellow growers decide what to try next.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Ed of Somis

My experiences with hybrids have been similar. Hyped to the max by commercial growers...and usually delivering an inferior tasting product. That being said...I sure love it that I discovered Big Beef 2 years ago. The thoughts and comments of folks on these forums is what I weigh heavily. Most of us have waded through duds that either are not for our locale...or are just inferior. Sharing our experiences (both good and bad)...not only cleanses the soul, but helps our fellow growers decide what to try next.

I agree. There are just as many not so good hybrids that there are OPs. Out of 10 OP that I planted 1n 2015 no more than 4 was decent. Example : I planted one Big Beef (OP) and one Big Beef (F1). The op was a big failure and the F1, a big winner.

Gardeneer

[Gerardo]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Then there is the guy in New Zealand where the plant police showed up at his door, pulled up his plants in the garden, and gave him a summons to appear in court for his "crimes".

Folks, please think carefully about sharing seed across national boundaries, particularly where diseases can be so easily spread. We do NOT need more invasive species and invasive diseases limiting what we can grow!

Agree completely. What we were referring to was Zenbass not being able to purchase hybrids from reputable seed vendors who can easily pass most phytosanitary hurdles, but somehow get mired in political ones.

On the slippery slope scale, I would feel quite comfortable purchasing something from Johnny's or any other reputable vendor and sending it off to him in SA, surreptitiously or otherwise. Now if it's something I saved in my backyard and there is a small chance (a real chance, not theoretical) that viruses are associated with it, then no, I would probably not do it.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Then there is the guy in New Zealand where the plant police showed up at his door, pulled up his plants in the garden, and gave him a summons to appear in court for his "crimes".

Folks, please think carefully about sharing seed across national boundaries, particularly where diseases can be so easily spread. We do NOT need more invasive species and invasive diseases limiting what we can grow!

One guy? Are you kidding? Gardens are illegal in New Zealand! Lots and lots of people had their gardens destroyed. If you want to read a really hilarious thread on reddit about this, full of sarcastic kiwi humor: Can you have a garden in New Zealand?

Here is one of the best posts about 1/2 way down. I couldn't stop laughing.

My brother was killed in the Moutua Gardens protest. My uncle lost an arm in the 1981 Spring Bok-choi Riots. My sisters were arrested and thrown into prison, without trial, by a police-led mob after they were discovered re-potting gardenias. Every day I live in fear, alienated by my community for having relatives marked by the Green Thumb. I envy the dead.

and

I'm disturbed by some of the comments here. Promoting gardening is just irresponsible. Fruit and vegetables cause harm, and there is an alarming trend of veggie use amongst young people.
Apart from being illegal in New Zealand, gardening can be a gateway to other antisocial and illegal activity. Kids might start with potatoes and carrots, but pretty soon progress to harder vegetables like spinach and bok choi (or "greens" as they are known on the street). In rare instances, some people cross-addict to herbs and spices also with potentially disastrous results.
The growing number of produce dealers (also known as "P" dealers) especially in urban centres and in low socioeconomic areas is a huge social issue and one that ties up way too much police resources.
I have been a fruit and vegetable counsellor for a number of years, and some of my clients have suffered majorly as a result of long term vegetable misuse. honestly, the produce epidemic is one of the biggest issues facing our communities.
I have no issue with casual lawn growing, especially if it is for personal use at home. It's more the big commercial market gardens that do most of the damage, making large scale produce easily accessible to young people.
I saw a young couple sharing an orange openly in the street the other day, juice running down their faces and hands. I just felt so sorry for them. As shocking as that is, it's nothing compared to what is going on in small town New Zealand where whole paddocks of grain, cauliflower and corn can be seen growing. It's got to stop.

Too many more to list.

Edited to add: One last honorable mention, just because I love puns.

Yeah. I've done thyme for gardening before.

[Dutch]

Thanks for the laughs, Scott.
I needed that!
I feel much better now!
Dutch

[bower]

Yeah Scott,
Had to stop and wipe the bits of my sandwich off the screen.... I blame it on the lettuce.