Member discussion regarding the methods, varieties and merits of growing tomatoes.
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December 7, 2015 | #16 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois, zone 6
Posts: 8,407
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Another cynical point that just occurred to me, if grafting increased production by 2-3x like the advertisements claim, then it would be standard commercial practice by now for large-scale tomato growers. What farmer wouldn't want double the yield? They would just throw up a cheap greenhouse, then create their own grafted plants to fill however many acres of field they had. If that doubled yield, everyone would be doing it.
I think grafting is cool. I don't mean to discourage anyone from experimenting with it. I'm only against deceptive seed company practices, which I suspect here. My family's land grows some great Jimson Weed. If I was grafting, I would be tempted to use it. I don't think the tomatoes would be poisonous, as long as you keep the base of the graft trimmed. But I don't have any way to test them for sure. |
December 7, 2015 | #17 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7
Posts: 4,909
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Quote:
The video just shows grafting technique. There are some other Youtube videos on it. I have already discovered 3 ways to do it. Here we are are talking about " How and/IF grafting can improve productivity". that is on a measurable and significant level. I can only trust some side-by-side experiment with data collected on several varieties in the course of one full season. I am not concluded one way or the other unless someone shows such an experiment. In response to Cole, we don't know what the commercial growers practicing. Maybe they are growing grafted plants. Maybe not. They won't tell us their trade secrets. Anyone of us, if interested, can do a "mini" "semi-scientific" experiment this coming season. I will try one myself, if I can learn the physical grafting work. I will do it just using Big Beef as root stock. I don't want to take out a loan and by some expensive seeds Gardeneer. |
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December 7, 2015 | #18 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Den of Drunken Fools
Posts: 38,539
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Quote:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...XS58r8pq0ujYOw worth |
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December 7, 2015 | #19 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7
Posts: 4,909
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I ain't gonna experiment for you I don't grow Opalka or any so-called paste variety. I might try with CP. We know it is not a good producer and it is one of my favorites in taste. That is it ! One grafted and one non-grafted CP. Maybe one more variety. I am not sure which . Gardeneer |
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December 8, 2015 | #20 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7
Posts: 4,909
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Root Stock ?
This past season I grew AZOYCHKA for the first time. The plant was vigorous and productive. I am thinking about using it as root stock in my upcoming experiment. It was the best producer in my garden along with Willamette and Big Beef. Entertaining An Idea : What to expect : by grafting Hahms Gelbe Topftomate ( a micro dwarf, under 12" in height ) onto Azoychka root stock ? or vice versa ? Gardeneer |
December 8, 2015 | #21 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
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Quote:
Gardeneer, might be interesting to try the Burpee Black Krim, and compare to a regular plant. As I mentioned, to all intents and purposes the heavy fruitload claims looked to be true as far as the grafted Fireworks goes. So whatever they're using as a rootstock, it seems to be working - up to the limit of the claim (and maybe of possibility) of an increase by 50%. So you would expect 1.5 times the fruit not more with that rootstock. I like your idea of trying another heirloom for rootstock. Maybe Azoychka would be the best for your conditions. Nice idea to have free seedlings for grafting practice too. I suppose you could make clones off a hybrid like Big Beef to save cash on rootstock. One thing that would slow down the adoption of grafting even if as good as the hype, is the crazy price for grafted plants. That would be a large cost on commercial scale. And even if they graft their own, how many tomatoes will it take to pay for the work of grafting? Maybe not worth it? |
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December 8, 2015 | #22 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
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Just a comment about Opalka and other pastes. I've done a fair bit of reading about productivity in the heirlooms looking for serious pumpers, and the pastes as a group (with exceptions) are typically known for their high production trait.
You may not want to eat them, but what about Opalka as a rootstock. I haven't grown it, but Worth said so. |
December 8, 2015 | #23 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alabama
Posts: 7,068
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I had a strange tomato grow one year from my Indian Stripe seed that produced easily 3 or 4 times as much fruit but it didn't have the same color or taste but it was a good tomato so I saved some seed and experimented with it as a rootstock. I did get increased production from most varieties I grafted onto it with no change in the look or size of the plants but it did not have the strong soil borne disease resistance that I need in my garden. It was better than most of my heirlooms in that category so it gave me generally another month of production before fusarium or nematodes got to them.
The only reason I graft now is to get plants that don't start getting sick a few weeks or months after being planted in my fusarium infested soil. After experimenting and getting some real boosts with a few varieties from the grafting I would probably still graft a few of my favorite heirlooms if I had limited space for planting. If you have the room and no soil problems I just don't see why it wouldn't be easier to just plant an extra plant of the varieties you like the most. That is what I always did until the fusarium problems became intolerable. Bill |
December 9, 2015 | #24 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7
Posts: 4,909
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Bill,
It seems to me that you have done quite a bit of experimentation across the board. Other than disease resistance, if a root stock has a large root system, it should nourish a more vigorous foliage. Then that bigger foliage may or may not produce more fruits. That can only be known by experimenting on certain varieties with different root stocks. My gardening is on a small scale so I cannot afford to do all kinds of experiments. I will just do a few just for the heck of it. Gardeneer |
December 9, 2015 | #25 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,124
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Has anyone tried using eggplant as root stock? I'm sure that I have read that it has been used, but don't remember any details. I would think that you would have to be very careful about Verticillium, but if you just consider the root system of an eggplant vs. a tomato, seems there might be something to eggplant root stock idea. (?) But aside from that, using Big Beef or maybe Juliet for root stock seems pretty logical and pretty cost-effective. Let's see, I'll try Red Robin grafted onto Juliet and see if I can get a 3 ft. Red Robin.
-GG |
December 9, 2015 | #26 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois, zone 6
Posts: 8,407
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There's a scanned image of a very old newspaper article, mid-1800's, about "poison tomatoes" making a family sick. They were grafted onto Jimson Weed and given to the family as a gift from a neighbor, who had been using that technique all his life. That's my source for the idea about the poison coming from not keeping the area below the graft properly trimmed. The guy who got the plants as a gift didn't know to do that. I think that story also fueled the tomatoes-are-poison hysteria of that time.
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December 9, 2015 | #27 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7
Posts: 4,909
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There are a lot of videos on Youtube showing grafting tomato onto eggplant root stock.
I think it is done for disease management not productivity improvement. Gardeneer |
December 9, 2015 | #28 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,001
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Grafting As A Vehicle To Improve Productivity
I played with grafting for two years, and my results were inconclusive. Some of the grafted varieties performed wonderfully, some did not, and the same was true of the ungrafted plants right beside them. Around here I don't worry much about soil borne diseases, so it was vigor and productivity I was looking for. I did wonder why I couldn't continue experimenting using proven performers as rootstock, and have decided on Juliet F1 because it is pretty bulletproof in my garden. Unfortunately last year I just didn't have time to continue the experiment, but plan to try next spring. I also look forward to hearing from anyone who can either encourage or discourage me based on experience, not conjecture.
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"Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!" -- Tommy Smothers Last edited by FarmerShawn; December 9, 2015 at 03:51 PM. |
December 9, 2015 | #29 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alabama
Posts: 7,068
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Shawn if you are looking for vigor I don't believe there is another tomato more vigorous than Juliet. I once let one keep growing and it took over a third of my garden by the time it finally started dying back. I think you could make boots from the skin of the tomatoes and the taste is very poor in my opinion; but the thing is a huge grower so you might find yourself having to do some serious pruning. I have found with the more vegetative root-stock like Multifort, Estamino and Maxifort that most varieties grafted to it need far more than normal pruning to keep it under control.
Bill |
December 9, 2015 | #30 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7
Posts: 4,909
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JULIET !
I grew one 7 or 8 years ago. I remember that it was prolific. So I might try to use it as root stock. This year I grew Azoychka. It was the most vigorous and productive too. That is also my other candidate along with Big Beef for root stock. Gardeneer |
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