Lets try this seed saving thing again

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by SueCT

NOT for argument, so no need to post a lot of links links and studies, but one of the things that occurred to me in all the different ways to do fermentation and especially how long to do it, is that there is no real information about when fermentation has done its job in reducing bacteria and funguses/fungi on the seed coat. Since fresh, unfermented seed can be viable and grow, that can't be the only test of how long you should ferment. So read what everyone does and take the advise that seems to fit your needs. My current batch have already fermented longer than 3 or 4 days so I guess I could do my experiment with viability should I want to, but not sure I want to get into that. I do know that since I stopped stirring from the beginning I got a much better fungal mat, if that is what you are after. Some don't feel that is necessary at all so if you don't care if you get a fungal mat, or what Carolyn says about the anaerobic process, then end it whenever it has done what you want it to. If it is just to separate the gel sac then fine, end it when that is done. Not having saved seeds before, I wrongly assumed there was one "correct" way to do fermentation, and I have learned here that there may not be.

You typed; "NOT for argument, so no need to post a lot of links links and studies, but one of the things that occurred to me in all the different ways to do fermentation and especially how long to do it, is that there is no real information about when fermentation has done its job in reducing bacteria and funguses/fungi on the seed coat."

Sue I actually have the answers to that, unfortunately I cannot post them since you don't want any more links and studies.I believe that when these scientists do the research and hard work they deserve the credit for it.You can figure out from what I have posted here what the answers are.

Jeff McCormick (not sure if his name is spelled right,Carolyn will know I have seen her mention him several times) says that, and I am doing this from memory, if you ferment for 4 days at a 70 degree controlled temperature,you can rid you seeds of Bacterial Canker.I have to add that he says to stir.He didn't provide any documentation that this works, maybe he did the research himself.

So Sue i think you can conclude (if he is correct on this) most pathogens are destroyed in 4 days or less, the fungal ones much quicker in as little as 24 hours.

I guess I gave you the answer anyway and without links

[Worth1]

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Worth, I really do not care for that post and I know it was directed at me.The lady asked a question and it had not been answered so I answered it.Furthermore I haven't seen you post anything constructive in this thread, unless you consider comparing making moonshine to fermenting tomato seeds.

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Personal attacks in public posts are not acceptable. This includes "baiting" or "flaming" for you Internet old-timers. You are entitled to post your opinion, so long as that opinion does not reflect poorly on another member. Remember that it's ok to disagree, as long as it's done in a civil manner.

[BackyardFarm]

Originally Posted by feldon30

Thanks for posting this. I'm in the process of redoing my gardening website and the settfest domain was lost due to the notification e-mails going somewhere I wasn't checking them.

I like a seed saving process that takes 30 minutes with no smell, no flies, and no chance of drying out or having a huge mess.

Does the cheap $1 no-name brand Oxi stuff work too?

[BackyardFarm]

Edited because I quoted the wrong person.

[BackyardFarm]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

The only time I've seen black seeds is when a tomato fruit has what's called internal BER. In which case there is no exterior black lesion at the blossom end,

http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/docu...11-04-10_r.pdf

http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.corne...Tom_ComDis.htm

Seaeagle says he reads stuff here and there whereas I have done the same stuff for about three decades, so have personal experience.

Whenever you stir the contents of a fermentation you introduce O2 and fermentation is an anaerobic process as I've posted several times.

First let the fungal mat form by allowing mold spores and bacteria to fall to the surface of the container. The time it takes to form that mat is highly variable and depends on temps and humidity, etc. In some cases there can be a filmy white surface with no definite mat, but those cases are rare indeed and relate the the internal pH of the tomato juices as well as the kinds of molds and bacteria present on the surface. In which case just see what happens and usually there are enough enzymes made to remove gel capsules and lower the pathogen burden on the seed coat, but it will take longer than if a sold mat were present.

So, once the mat is formed, which is the usual case, O2 that is in the upper layers of the gook is removed by aerobic molds and bacteria. I should mention that in addition to both aerobic and anaerobic molds and bacteria that there are some that are called facultative, viz, can operate on the presence or absence of air.

With time, which cannot be given, you'll see a clear area start to form underneath the mat, then you should see gas bubbles that form on the inside of the container, then youll see seeds dropping to the botteom.

Then and ONLY then do you process the seeds by taking off the mat, THEN pour off the tomato gunk and mat leaving the seeds at the btoom which will still have some tomato debris attached to them

Holding a hose on your hand spritz water into the container maybe half full, Then swirl the contents and pour off the liquid part. Repeat until the water you pour off is clear .

Then tap out the seeds, well I don't see why I need to go thru this part again,

Have I EVER said to stir the contents of the fermention while it is still fermenting? No, b'c that would break up the mat and stop the fermentation by adding air.

Have I ever said that fermentation takes so many days to occur? No I have not. No one can b'c of all the variables I've mentioned many times as to temps, humidity, kinds of fungi and bacteria that are in the mat.

I hope the above does help,

Carolyn, waiting for the US Open mens final in NY to start, is in a rain delay, or she wouldn't have had the time to do such a long descriptive post.Still in a rain delay so I came back to add that when taking off the mat there are usually seeds and debris clinging to the underside it so just take your fingers and push that clinging stuff down in the gook below since most of those seeds would already have been fermented. Contact between seeds and the mat is not necessary at all but does happen under the mat. Most of the time it's the enzymes that are made that do the work and the enzymes are in the liquid phase.

Thank you Carolyn, that's very clear instructions! I'm feeling pretty confident in my try on this now.

[Worth1]

Worth's Old Time seed saving recipe.
50 pounds of tomatoes.
10 pounds of sugar.
1 pound of yeast.
40 gallons of spring water.
Mix and mash ingredients up in huge container and let ferment until the mash stops bubbling.
At NO time do you stir the mixture.
Put mash in big boiler under low heat and collect the steam off the top in a condenser.
Drink the juice and throw away the seeds.

Works for corn seeds too.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Worth's Old Time seed saving recipe.
50 pounds of tomatoes.
10 pounds of sugar.
1 pound of yeast.
40 gallons of spring water.
Mix and mash ingredients up in huge container and let ferment until the mash stops bubbling.
At NO time do you stir the mixture.
Put mash in big boiler under low heat and collect the steam off the top in a condenser.
Drink the juice and throw away the seeds.

Works for corn seeds too.

You've got a bit of a devil in you, and you just can't resist.

[SharonRossy]

Well, anyways, my question was answered about the fermentation process, so everyone, have a glass of mash, and relax! Enjoy those tiny bubbles, especially if its in a brew!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

You typed; "NOT for argument, so no need to post a lot of links links and studies, but one of the things that occurred to me in all the different ways to do fermentation and especially how long to do it, is that there is no real information about when fermentation has done its job in reducing bacteria and funguses/fungi on the seed coat."

Sue I actually have the answers to that, unfortunately I cannot post them since you don't want any more links and studies.I believe that when these scientists do the research and hard work they deserve the credit for it.You can figure out from what I have posted here what the answers are.

Jeff McCormick (not sure if his name is spelled right,Carolyn will know I have seen her mention him several times) says that, and I am doing this from memory, if you ferment for 4 days at a 70 degree controlled temperature,you can rid you seeds of Bacterial Canker.I have to add that he says to stir.He didn't provide any documentation that this works, maybe he did the research himself.

So Sue i think you can conclude (if he is correct on this) most pathogens are destroyed in 4 days or less, the fungal ones much quicker in as little as 24 hours.

I guess I gave you the answer anyway and without links

About Dr. Jeff McCormack who I do know very well.

Here is the article your refer to.

http://www.michiganheirlooms.com/PDF...Production.pdf

Yes, your memory about Bacterial Canker was quite correct, but please now two important facts.

First, he wrote that for the Middle Atlantic states and deep south as Jeff called it, which would mean W from PA to OH to IL to Indiana and from VA along the coast down to FL and then along the Gulf states.

Most important is that he wrote that article in about 2004, almost 16 years ago, and knowing now that Bacterial Canker is in the endosperm of the seeds I don't think anyone would try what he said, even though he said Bacterial Canker is rare, b'c almost everyone who addressed the Bacterial Canker issue in this thread noted that hot water treatment would be needed and they are correct.

I had also noted in one of the posts in this thread that in the catalogs directd mainly for commercial growers that seeds for a certain variety were offered with and without hot water treatment.

Carolyn

[SueCT]

Thank you, everyone! As confusing as I found all the different methods, it was all very helpful, and for the first time I have been able to germinate my own saved seeds. Not the best method of germination apparently, but 10 seeds in a damp paper towel inside a baggie has now yielded 80% germination on my Estler's ML seeds, and I still have high hopes for the last 2 plump little seeds. A small sample but I would love to be able to say I got 90 or 100%. Even 80% is a success, so thank you all for all the time you took to "school me", lol. I likely have a few hundred ML seeds that I saved using fermentation. If anyone is really looking for some, I would be happy to share a few. Although I plan to test grow a couple of my own plants this summer to make sure they grow out true, if you want some before than, just let me know. I can accommodate up to 10 or people if needed and still save plenty for my own grow out trials and several years to come. Just PM me. Special THANK YOU to Carolyn for sharing some very hard to find seeds with me so I could do this!