Any ideas? (pics)

325abn · May 20, 2007

I have been lurking for a few weeks. This is a great site for sure. I did not see a introduction forum and as this is my first post. I live in NH been growing from seed for a 4 years now. I sell at the local FM.

Here are some shots of my seedling that have went south! I have about 400 plants that all preety much look the same as this one. I think I may have went a tad bit to heavy on the fish emulsion. Notice the leef curl some the plant have lower leaves that have outright died and fell of the plant at the slightest touch. These plants where doing great the I fed them with neptunes fish mixed at about 3/4 cup to 2.75 gal of water.
Do these plants look overfed, over watered, under watered?
Any ideas on how to help them?

325abn · May 21, 2007

Could these symptoms be from the unvented propane heater that I use?
The greenhouse was closed up for several day while it was cold and rainy.

CLa · May 21, 2007

Yeah quite possibly that is what your problem is. Never use any fertilizer for seedlings. They don't need it, not until they get bigger. If you use any kind of fertilized mix, then you have to be pretty careful, and make sure the fertilizer is pretty dilute. Potting mixes that have a slow release fertilizer can be very deadly, I lost some plants myself that way. You could A: Sterilize some ground soil or compost and use it for potting. B: Buy some peat moss based unfertilized mix, like 'promix' made by premier, or maybe a basic potting mix from the store with very little fertilizer in it. or C: follow some suggestions that the next poster will probably give... Let me suggest however, although some like to use them, peat pots are terrible in my opinion. Reason, they lose water very quickly and once the roots find the sides of the peat pot, you have a tough time getting the plant and its root-ball/soil as a whole out of the container without disrupting the root/soil. What I plan to do next time I seed, is use the very small seed plastic trays to get the seeds to come up, then transfer the plants into stirefoam cups. They are like a 1 or 2$ for a 20 pack or some such. Poke a few holes in the bottom, very easy to deal with. But let me say, the bigger the second transplanting pot the better. If you have some big half gallon round containers like the large size whip cream or butter containers, those are perfect, that is what I use, and anything else big enough to where the roots will have room to grow, and the plant is less likely to get stunted. You get a better head start, and fairly nice size plant by the time you put them in the garden. If they have sat too long in a peat pot, then they get programmed to think, "this is it, we can do no more

what do we do now? " so they get messed up, trying to put on premature blooms etc..

Anyway good luck!

sirtanon · May 21, 2007

My initial thoughts are that you totally overdid it with the fertilizer. That kind of dose is enough for a couple well-established plants.. just too much for the little seedlings.

If you fertilize your seedlings at all, you should be dosing them at about 1/8th the normal strength, at most. Giving them more would be like trying to feed a 6-month-old baby a porterhouse steak.

I second what CLa says about the peat pots. I used to use them, but stopped quite early on. They just have too many problems - mold, poor root penetration, plus they wick the water away from the soil.. etc..

I use either styrofoam cups, or the 16-oz plastic ones. Inexpensive, light, strong, easy to separate from the soil/root-ball, and they stay DRY on the outside.

Since you mentioned your heater - I have heard that using a hydrocarbon-fueled heater in an enclosed space with tomato plants can really do them damage if it's not VERY well ventilated.. so yes, that could have also contributed.

If I were you, I'd do the following:

- Get all the plants outdoors where they get some filtered sunlight... not too strong.

- Water them THOROUGHLY from the hose or some other fresh water source. NO fertilizer. Make sure that the water drains well too. Don't let them sit in water. If you have to, cut a few extra drain holes.

- Set up an oscillating fan somewhere near them and leave it on low. Make sure it's moving back and forth.

- After you've soaked the soil thoroughly to clean out the excess fert, let the soil dry out a bit before you water next. If you must, give them a light misting of clean water.

These steps will -

- Refresh/clean out the soil
- Give them fresh clean air
- Get oxygen to the plant

Keep us appraised of your progress.

barkeater · May 21, 2007

Looks like they were too cold and wet for an extended period.

3/4 cup fish emulsion in almost 3 gal. of water isn't going to burn them, in my opinion.

dcarch · May 21, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by 325abn

Could these symptoms be from the unvented propane heater that I use?
The greenhouse was closed up for several day while it was cold and rainy.

commercial greenhouses use CO2 enrichment to increase productivity. so I don't think propane heater is bad.

dcarch

325abn · May 21, 2007

Plants looked a tad bit better today. I gave them a good drink of water and with the high temps forecast over the next few days I should be able to "flush" them again.

I am quite sure its the fish that made them sick. Not sure what I was thinking mixing it so dense. I uasally feed them once before they go into the ground at a 1/4 cup to 2.75 gal of water.

I will post some pics in a few days of the hopefully recovered plants.

the999bbq · May 22, 2007

curly leaves usually are from to much heat in the greenhouse - we had unusual heat and draught for six weeks a couple of weeks ago and most tomatoes where trying to cope by curling. Your leaves look different though since they look weak/limp like when you forget to water a plant.
Your plant look ok for transplanting to me, so if the conditions are right for your region I would transplant them deep (if they are really leggy somewhat horizontal), give them plenty of water and they should recover fine. Hold the feeding for some time, let the plant establish first.
I never feed my seeds nor seedlings until after they are transplanted in their final location.
As a seed the tomato has all it needs in the seed, as seedling you want them to be compact but healthy so poor soil and plenty of light should do.
When they are transplanted you want growth so nettle tea is fine and when they are setting flowers and especially fruit it can be good to feed them (but not necessary if you fed the soil well before with compost and some manure)

325abn · May 22, 2007

Thanks for all the great input. A poster on GW sugested I use some epsom salt diluted in water to green up the plants.

Any ideas on this?

dcarch · May 22, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by 325abn

Thanks for all the great input. A poster on GW sugested I use some epsom salt diluted in water to green up the plants.

Any ideas on this?

If you are planning to put them in ground soon you probably don't need to do too much.

dcarch

barkeater · May 22, 2007

Wherever people get the notion that tomato seedlings get all the fertilizer it needs from the seed until transplanting in the garden is just plain lunacy! After the second set of leaves they need to be fertilized.

sirtanon · May 22, 2007

They do, yes... but in SMALL amounts. Just enough to keep them going. At that size, it doesn't take much.

325abn · May 22, 2007

No doubt I ODed these plants on fish.

I will probley transplant in the garden starting mid next week. I am confidate the ones I put in the garden will recover and flurish. I will certainly not make this mistake again!!

I will have between 150 and 175, that leaves me with 200 or so plants.

My delima is what to do with the "extra" 200. I would normally sell these at FM but if these plants dont shape up no one will want to pay $3.50/plant for them. So the question is, What do I do with 200 Tomato plant that people dont want to pay full price for?

Should I compost them?

Sell them at a loss with an explaination that they should do fine once transplanted?

Any thoughts?

the999bbq · May 23, 2007

jiepie, another one considered me a loon ;-)
tomato seeds have endosperm that feeds them during germination. non-endospermic seeds rely on the cotyledons (aka the first leaves) as their only food supply (as in peas). so yes, they are packed with food - isn't nature wonderful. You could let them germinate on grit - or as you do in the deno method on wet papertowel (not much nutrients in moist papertowel is my guess).
I you feed while they are seedlings they will grow like little "hulks" maybe, you waiste a lot of money in my opinion : water and good quality light should in a non-fertalised potting soil do perfectly fine. You could start with feeding once their first true leaves are there but even than don't spoil the plant, don't forget there is always food in whatever soil you give them.
If you added your own ripe compost they'll be happy enough.

But it's up to everyone to follow his own schemes, my plants are all very strong and healthy plants and they get some extra food once they are transplanted... moderate feeding.

Granny · May 23, 2007

325abn - Why would you compost them if you cannot get $3.50 per plant?

Sell them for less with an explanation of why they look the way they do. Or pass them out at your child's school. Or call your local food pantry - they might like to have them to pass out to some of their clients on the "Teach a man to fish" principle. Or take them to church.

Composting perfectly good tomato plants would be such a waste.

May 20, 2007	#1
325abn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: NH Posts: 6	Any ideas? (pics) I have been lurking for a few weeks. This is a great site for sure. I did not see a introduction forum and as this is my first post. I live in NH been growing from seed for a 4 years now. I sell at the local FM. Here are some shots of my seedling that have went south! I have about 400 plants that all preety much look the same as this one. I think I may have went a tad bit to heavy on the fish emulsion. Notice the leef curl some the plant have lower leaves that have outright died and fell of the plant at the slightest touch. These plants where doing great the I fed them with neptunes fish mixed at about 3/4 cup to 2.75 gal of water. Do these plants look overfed, over watered, under watered? Any ideas on how to help them? __________________ "Lets go"

May 21, 2007	#2
325abn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: NH Posts: 6	Could these symptoms be from the unvented propane heater that I use? The greenhouse was closed up for several day while it was cold and rainy. __________________ "Lets go"

May 21, 2007	#4
sirtanon Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Phoenix, AZ (zone 9b) Posts: 796	My initial thoughts are that you totally overdid it with the fertilizer. That kind of dose is enough for a couple well-established plants.. just too much for the little seedlings. If you fertilize your seedlings at all, you should be dosing them at about 1/8th the normal strength, at most. Giving them more would be like trying to feed a 6-month-old baby a porterhouse steak. I second what CLa says about the peat pots. I used to use them, but stopped quite early on. They just have too many problems - mold, poor root penetration, plus they wick the water away from the soil.. etc.. I use either styrofoam cups, or the 16-oz plastic ones. Inexpensive, light, strong, easy to separate from the soil/root-ball, and they stay DRY on the outside. Since you mentioned your heater - I have heard that using a hydrocarbon-fueled heater in an enclosed space with tomato plants can really do them damage if it's not VERY well ventilated.. so yes, that could have also contributed. If I were you, I'd do the following: - Get all the plants outdoors where they get some filtered sunlight... not too strong. - Water them THOROUGHLY from the hose or some other fresh water source. NO fertilizer. Make sure that the water drains well too. Don't let them sit in water. If you have to, cut a few extra drain holes. - Set up an oscillating fan somewhere near them and leave it on low. Make sure it's moving back and forth. - After you've soaked the soil thoroughly to clean out the excess fert, let the soil dry out a bit before you water next. If you must, give them a light misting of clean water. These steps will - - Refresh/clean out the soil - Give them fresh clean air - Get oxygen to the plant Keep us appraised of your progress. __________________ I could sail by on the winds of silence, and maybe they won't notice... but this time I think it would be better if I swim..

May 21, 2007	#7
325abn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: NH Posts: 6	Plants looked a tad bit better today. I gave them a good drink of water and with the high temps forecast over the next few days I should be able to "flush" them again. I am quite sure its the fish that made them sick. Not sure what I was thinking mixing it so dense. I uasally feed them once before they go into the ground at a 1/4 cup to 2.75 gal of water. I will post some pics in a few days of the hopefully recovered plants. __________________ "Lets go"

May 22, 2007	#9
325abn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: NH Posts: 6	Thanks for all the great input. A poster on GW sugested I use some epsom salt diluted in water to green up the plants. Any ideas on this? __________________ "Lets go"

May 21, 2007	#3
CLa Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Central Louisiana. Zone: 8 Posts: 207	Yeah quite possibly that is what your problem is. Never use any fertilizer for seedlings. They don't need it, not until they get bigger. If you use any kind of fertilized mix, then you have to be pretty careful, and make sure the fertilizer is pretty dilute. Potting mixes that have a slow release fertilizer can be very deadly, I lost some plants myself that way. You could A: Sterilize some ground soil or compost and use it for potting. B: Buy some peat moss based unfertilized mix, like 'promix' made by premier, or maybe a basic potting mix from the store with very little fertilizer in it. or C: follow some suggestions that the next poster will probably give... Let me suggest however, although some like to use them, peat pots are terrible in my opinion. Reason, they lose water very quickly and once the roots find the sides of the peat pot, you have a tough time getting the plant and its root-ball/soil as a whole out of the container without disrupting the root/soil. What I plan to do next time I seed, is use the very small seed plastic trays to get the seeds to come up, then transfer the plants into stirefoam cups. They are like a 1 or 2$ for a 20 pack or some such. Poke a few holes in the bottom, very easy to deal with. But let me say, the bigger the second transplanting pot the better. If you have some big half gallon round containers like the large size whip cream or butter containers, those are perfect, that is what I use, and anything else big enough to where the roots will have room to grow, and the plant is less likely to get stunted. You get a better head start, and fairly nice size plant by the time you put them in the garden. If they have sat too long in a peat pot, then they get programmed to think, "this is it, we can do no more what do we do now? " so they get messed up, trying to put on premature blooms etc.. Anyway good luck!

May 21, 2007	#5
barkeater Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NE Kingdom, VT - Zone 3b Posts: 1,439	Looks like they were too cold and wet for an extended period. 3/4 cup fish emulsion in almost 3 gal. of water isn't going to burn them, in my opinion.

May 22, 2007	#8
the999bbq Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 191	curly leaves usually are from to much heat in the greenhouse - we had unusual heat and draught for six weeks a couple of weeks ago and most tomatoes where trying to cope by curling. Your leaves look different though since they look weak/limp like when you forget to water a plant. Your plant look ok for transplanting to me, so if the conditions are right for your region I would transplant them deep (if they are really leggy somewhat horizontal), give them plenty of water and they should recover fine. Hold the feeding for some time, let the plant establish first. I never feed my seeds nor seedlings until after they are transplanted in their final location. As a seed the tomato has all it needs in the seed, as seedling you want them to be compact but healthy so poor soil and plenty of light should do. When they are transplanted you want growth so nettle tea is fine and when they are setting flowers and especially fruit it can be good to feed them (but not necessary if you fed the soil well before with compost and some manure)

May 22, 2007	#13
325abn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: NH Posts: 6	No doubt I ODed these plants on fish. I will probley transplant in the garden starting mid next week. I am confidate the ones I put in the garden will recover and flurish. I will certainly not make this mistake again!! I will have between 150 and 175, that leaves me with 200 or so plants. My delima is what to do with the "extra" 200. I would normally sell these at FM but if these plants dont shape up no one will want to pay $3.50/plant for them. So the question is, What do I do with 200 Tomato plant that people dont want to pay full price for? Should I compost them? Sell them at a loss with an explaination that they should do fine once transplanted? Any thoughts? __________________ "Lets go"

May 23, 2007	#14
the999bbq Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 191	jiepie, another one considered me a loon ;-) tomato seeds have endosperm that feeds them during germination. non-endospermic seeds rely on the cotyledons (aka the first leaves) as their only food supply (as in peas). so yes, they are packed with food - isn't nature wonderful. You could let them germinate on grit - or as you do in the deno method on wet papertowel (not much nutrients in moist papertowel is my guess). I you feed while they are seedlings they will grow like little "hulks" maybe, you waiste a lot of money in my opinion : water and good quality light should in a non-fertalised potting soil do perfectly fine. You could start with feeding once their first true leaves are there but even than don't spoil the plant, don't forget there is always food in whatever soil you give them. If you added your own ripe compost they'll be happy enough. But it's up to everyone to follow his own schemes, my plants are all very strong and healthy plants and they get some extra food once they are transplanted... moderate feeding.

May 23, 2007	#15
Granny Tomatovillian™ Honoree Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 507	325abn - Why would you compost them if you cannot get $3.50 per plant? Sell them for less with an explanation of why they look the way they do. Or pass them out at your child's school. Or call your local food pantry - they might like to have them to pass out to some of their clients on the "Teach a man to fish" principle. Or take them to church. Composting perfectly good tomato plants would be such a waste.