Tell me about your seeds

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Seaeagle, I did not read the 6 links you put up so went back and read all 6 and only ONE had the various sections that belong in a scientific paper giving DATA, and I wasn't too thrilled with the way they did some experiments.

#1, from Africa, the only one with actual data. and knowing from Africa right away you know that what they did would not necessarily pertain to you in VA.

Fermented for 1-4 days at 24 C
Stirred the gunk, that's a no no since in introduces O2 and fermentation is an anaerobic process
Dried the seed for 5 days at 25 C, then dried in a LAB drier for 4 MONThs to get moisture down to 5%, not needed since one dries down seed to 5-8% only if freezing seed.

Placed on filter and watered every 8 hrs? Were filters exposed to the air or bagged. If the latter, a great way to get the abnormal seeds they got.

They say the germination gaph shows all is fine up to 3 days, but only went to 4 days with a 20% drop to 80%, not good enough for me.

#2 TAMU in TX

Pretty useless as I see it, no data given, just anecdotal

#3 Oregon, same as above

#4 LSU, 2-4 days, no DATA as to methodology

#5 SESE in VA, probably near you. in general OK but note that huge batches are being processed since they produce a lot of their own seed. I don't know who wote the article, it wasn't Dr. Jeff McCormack whom I knew well, since he sold it a few years back.

#6 Farmer Fred in CA

I knew I was in trouble ASAP when he said that tomato blossoms are pollinated by BOTH WIND and insects. The reports on possible wind pollination are almost as rare as finding wings on frogs.

He went on to say use a PAPER BAG to cover blossoms and that's a BIG no no, no air can get in and the blossoms rot. Then he said to cover with a lid loosely, and that's a huge nono since it prevents the fungi and bacteria from falling onto the gunk.

He went ahead and said to stir Once or twice a day, and that's a big no no since that introduces O2 and fermentation is an anaerobic process as I wrote in that very long post about fermentation that I wrote for you.

If anyone else here wants to go through those 6 links and read and critique as I have, go to it.

Carolyn

Carolyn I will take your word for it without you posting links.

Worth

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Carolyn I will take your word for it without you posting links.

Worth

Worth, Seaeagle posted the links in posts 25 and 26.

Carolyn

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Worth, Seaeagle posted the links in posts 25 and 26.

Carolyn

I know I was being cantankerous.
I dont read many research links, I find them very boring.

Worth

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Seaeagle, I did not read the 6 links you put up so went back and read all 6 and only ONE had the various sections that belong in a scientific paper giving DATA, and I wasn't too thrilled with the way they did some experiments.

#1, from Africa, the only one with actual data. and knowing from Africa right away you know that what they did would not necessarily pertain to you in VA.

Fermented for 1-4 days at 24 C
Stirred the gunk, that's a no no since in introduces O2 and fermentation is an anaerobic process
Dried the seed for 5 days at 25 C, then dried in a LAB drier for 4 MONThs to get moisture down to 5%, not needed since one dries down seed to 5-8% only if freezing seed.

Placed on filter and watered every 8 hrs? Were filters exposed to the air or bagged. If the latter, a great way to get the abnormal seeds they got.

They say the germination gaph shows all is fine up to 3 days, but only went to 4 days with a 20% drop to 80%, not good enough for me.

#2 TAMU in TX

Pretty useless as I see it, no data given, just anecdotal

#3 Oregon, same as above

#4 LSU, 2-4 days, no DATA as to methodology

#5 SESE in VA, probably near you. in general OK but note that huge batches are being processed since they produce a lot of their own seed. I don't know who wote the article, it wasn't Dr. Jeff McCormack whom I knew well, since he sold it a few years back.

#6 Farmer Fred in CA

I knew I was in trouble ASAP when he said that tomato blossoms are pollinated by BOTH WIND and insects. The reports on possible wind pollination are almost as rare as finding wings on frogs.

He went on to say use a PAPER BAG to cover blossoms and that's a BIG no no, no air can get in and the blossoms rot. Then he said to cover with a lid loosely, and that's a huge nono since it prevents the fungi and bacteria from falling onto the gunk.

He went ahead and said to stir Once or twice a day, and that's a big no no since that introduces O2 and fermentation is an anaerobic process as I wrote in that very long post about fermentation that I wrote for you.

If anyone else here wants to go through those 6 links and read and critique as I have, go to it.

Carolyn

Goodness, where do I start, seems like a hit a nerve in Tomatoville

You said "#1, from Africa, the only one with actual data. and knowing from Africa right away you know that what they did would not necessarily pertain to you in VA.

Why would fermenting seeds in Africa be any different than fermenting seeds anywhere else in the world?If you have questions about the methodology of their research I suggest you direct it to them.The research was done because there was a food shortage and people were starving and every tomato seed may make a difference.I am sure this research was taken quite seriously.

Texas A&M, University of Oregon, and LSU might differ with you when you say their data is useless

And yes SESE is about 2 hour drive from me and one of the top rated seed companies in the world.I know Bonnie plants use to buy seeds from them and still might at least I think I am correct on this.

And Farmer Fred, you gotta love that guy
And you are saying tomatoes are not wind pollinated?Well that is a debate for another thread Hey, the paper bag actually works, How do you think term "bagging" came to be in the first place?The only problem is when it rains

You said "Then he said to cover with a lid loosely, and that's a huge nono since it prevents the fungi and bacteria from falling onto the gunk."

I don't cover lid either, but a lot of people do and I really don't see a problem with it as long as it is covered loosely.I don't stir either, but I have seen no evidence that it would stop the fermentation process. I think that addresses all your points, and I am still waiting on digdirt's 7 day minimum fermentation details.But I am glad you took time off from tennis to address this important situation

While I am typing I am going to give you my Keep it Simple tomato seed fermentation method.HAHA Like it or not

1-scoop the seeds from the tomato into the jar,uncovered or loosely covered, add a little water
2-tomato seed fermentation is best achieved between 75 and 85 degrees F.The reason being, this allows for quick fermentation of 3 days or less and results in higher seed germination and less abnormal seedlings
3-Check every day for a fungal mat.If you see a fungal mat it signals the end of the process, not the beginning.It is not necessary to see a fungal mat, any one with a sense of smell can smell fermentationAt 75 to 85 degrees at the end of 3 days you are done fungal mat or no fungal mat
4- rinsing and drying etc

Thank you for your time, it is really an honor to be chatting with one of the people who one day wikipedia might say is credited with saving heirloom tomatoes
Oh I almost forgot here is another link from some guy, not sure who he is, but I agree with just about everything he writes about fermenting.Somehow I think I am safe with this one.Just a hunch I guess

http://www.motherearthnews.com/organ...1504zcwil.aspx

[tam91]

This thread is... dunno, lost for words.

Shame you probably wasted your time going through those links Carolyn. Nice of you to try though.

[tam91]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

Oh I almost forgot here is another link from some guy, not sure who he is, but I agree with just about everything he writes about fermenting.Somehow I think I am safe with this one.Just a hunch I guess

http://www.motherearthnews.com/organ...1504zcwil.aspx

lol, and in that link it says "If the weather is cooler, it could take up to 5 days for the fermentation to take place and the fungal layer to form. "

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

Goodness, where do I start, seems like a hit a nerve in Tomatoville

You said "#1, from Africa, the only one with actual data. and knowing from Africa right away you know that what they did would not necessarily pertain to you in VA.

Why would fermenting seeds in Africa be any different than fermenting seeds anywhere else in the world?If you have questions about the methodology of their research I suggest you direct it to them.The research was done because there was a food shortage and people were starving and every tomato seed may make a difference.I am sure this research was taken quite seriously.

Texas A&M, University of Oregon, and LSU might differ with you when you say their data is useless

And yes SESE is about 2 hour drive from me and one of the top rated seed companies in the world.I know Bonnie plants use to buy seeds from them and still might at least I think I am correct on this.

And Farmer Fred, you gotta love that guy
And you are saying tomatoes are not wind pollinated?Well that is a debate for another thread Hey, the paper bag actually works, How do you think term "bagging" came to be in the first place?The only problem is when it rains

You said "Then he said to cover with a lid loosely, and that's a huge nono since it prevents the fungi and bacteria from falling onto the gunk."

I don't cover lid either, but a lot of people do and I really don't see a problem with it as long as it is covered loosely.I don't stir either, but I have seen no evidence that it would stop the fermentation process. I think that addresses all your points, and I am still waiting on digdirt's 7 day minimum fermentation details.But I am glad you took time off from tennis to address this important situation

While I am typing I am going to give you my Keep it Simple tomato seed fermentation method.HAHA Like it or not

1-scoop the seeds from the tomato into the jar,uncovered or loosely covered, add a little water
2-tomato seed fermentation is best achieved between 75 and 85 degrees F.The reason being, this allows for quick fermentation of 3 days or less and results in higher seed germination and less abnormal seedlings
3-Check every day for a fungal mat.If you see a fungal mat it signals the end of the process, not the beginning.It is not necessary to see a fungal mat, any one with a sense of smell can smell fermentationAt 75 to 85 degrees at the end of 3 days you are done fungal mat or no fungal mat
4- rinsing and drying etc

Thank you for your time, it is really an honor to be chatting with one of the people who one day wikipedia might say is credited with saving heirloom tomatoes
Oh I almost forgot here is another link from some guy, not sure who he is, but I agree with just about everything he writes about fermenting.Somehow I think I am safe with this one.Just a hunch I guess

http://www.motherearthnews.com/organ...1504zcwil.aspx

Your last link to Craig's way of saving seeds makes my point precisely and that's that there are many of us who have for many decades saved tomato seeds and processed them and know more about home saving than some of the folks you linked to.

Craig's book has been advertised in many places and it's part of Storey's PR program.

No, I will not have a Wiki page saying that I personally saved heirloom tomatoes.

And when assessing links I'd just like to point out that I spent my entire professional life in academia and was a guest editor for Infection and Immunity, Virology and Bacteriology.

One exaample of one of my scientific papers:

http://iai.asm.org/content/26/1/254.full.pdf

I do know what a peer reviewed article should include in order to be accepted for publication.

No more comments from me, who tried to help, but obviously failed.

Carolyn

[Worth1]

Here are some of my San Marzano seeds I just got through saving.
Good enough for me.
Worth
IMG_20150706_24519.jpg

[efisakov]

I personally do not think that paper/research from Africa was conclusive at all. Seeds germinate without fermentation too, and it can give high percentage of seeds germinating as well. BUT, the reason for fermentation is to get rid of deceases. That paper did not test that the seeds fermented 1 day were not infected. Second, it had just one container for each 1/2/3/4 days fermentation. It is not research to me at all. There has to be multiple containers to prove a point. To show consistency in outcomes. They would have to start with infected tomatoes, process seeds in multiple containers and grow out plants to show that deceases were not shown in 1 day fermented seeds...
I know from my own FOOD fermentations that 3 days usually is what it takes to ferment.
What is posted in that article is not a scientific experiment to prove anything at all. Plus, it was only one tomato variety.

[digsdirt]

If you had actually read this entire thread, you would know that I save seeds and what method I use.

I did, several times, and the only mention you made about saving seeds (until this latest post) was a brief comment about "well it is 3 days now so I guess I'll get my paper plates ready". That in no way conveys your experience at saving seeds.

If you ferment your seeds for a minimum of seven days, why are you even doing germination tests for 3 and 5 days

Obviously to prove to myself that the germination rates were the same after 7 days as they were after 3 and 5 days.

Clearly you can do as you wish when it comes to fermentation but that in no way makes your argument some sort of ultimate truth or natural law. Especially when you insist on ignoring all the variables involved. The greater the number of variables the more likely your "truth" is null and void.

Dave

[digsdirt]

If you had actually read this entire thread, you would know that I save seeds and what method I use.

I did, several times, and the only mention you made about saving seeds (until this latest post) was a brief comment about "well it is 3 days now so I guess I'll get my paper plates ready". That in no way conveys your experience at saving seeds.

If you ferment your seeds for a minimum of seven days, why are you even doing germination tests for 3 and 5 days

Obviously to prove to myself that the germination rates were the same after 7 days as they were after 3 and 5 days.

Clearly you can do as you wish when it comes to fermentation but that in no way makes your argument some sort of ultimate truth or natural law. Especially when you insist on ignoring all the variables involved. The greater the number of variables the more likely your "truth" is null and void.

Dave