Early Tomato Varieties

[bower]

Originally Posted by BlackBear

WOW !
This is another factor to consider if the OP seedlings available in a local area
are not as the same attributes ...they used to be .

So... does it also follow that ....Hybrids that depend on the OP "heirloom"

parents ...may also NOT be what they used to in original Golden age
of development and release to public. ?

The companies that produce hybrid seed have a pretty big job - not just making the crosses and harvesting the seeds. They have to maintain their true breeding lines - in other words, growing them out in numbers and carefully selecting to make sure nothing is lost in the line. Otherwise the hybrid seed quality would indeed deteriorate, it seems.

I think it would be a bit of a stretch to think that none of our heirlooms/OP's are as good as they once were. Lets not forget that 'average' means no change. vs exceptional (2 percent or less?) and worse (?? no data given for that). I'm guessing that average is the bigger slice.

[RJGlew]

Originally Posted by bower

I think it would be a bit of a stretch to think that none of our heirlooms/OP's are as good as they once were. Lets not forget that 'average' means no change. vs exceptional (2 percent or less?) and worse (?? no data given for that). I'm guessing that average is the bigger slice.

Agreed no data. However, the author's suggestion that significant negative genetic drift occurrs in just 20-30 years of seed saving without proper selection processes indicates that `worse' occurs more often than `better.'

[DonDuck]

If we selected a few of the latest, purist bred; open pollinated varieties with the best qualities and returned them to the environment where the original "wild" tomatoes thrived without human interference; assuming genetic drift or natural mutation is real, would they revert to their original phenotype or develop a totally new variety? That would assume no cross breeding from outside influence occurred and all conditions are the same as they were when the wild tomatoes prospered. If they revert to their original form, would it require one hundred years or one thousand years?

[Black Krim]

More importantly is to maintain the selection pressure to keep good varieties strong and viable and true to their intended use.

Some years ago a man, Don Schrider, spent just a few years to rejuvenate an old nearly forgotten breed of chicken: the buckeye. He took several lines, carefully selected from dedicated poutlrymen to begin again by mixing these lines in a planned method to increase genetic diversity AND improve the quality of the carcass to what it used to be. The genes were still there--just needed selection to push from average to better than average.

http://livestockconservancy.org/inde...tion-successes

Secure & Sustain:

staff member Jeannette Beranger and former staffer Don Schrider developed a master breeder program for Buckeye chickens that has set the gold standard for expansion and selection of rare chicken breeds.

Unfortunately I could not find his original publication, where it gives just a few short years to creat this success. ANd I mean Just a few, like 4-5 years.

[Black Krim]

"Some of Andrey's Siberian tomatoes fit the bill. I really like Gribovsky, good shelf life, productive, tolerates cold, no splitting ever, can do without staking, and the flavor is good to great when all cylinders are firing. . fruit size is 75-150 grams. Alc1gene plays a major role with Gribovsky."

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/w/im...kiy_Plant1.jpg

[carolyn137]

I have a lot of catching up to do in the later pages in this thread, and that b/c I do have alternative opinions on comments made about genetic drift and changes made in specific varieties in just several decades,when I know of varieties that were pre-1900 ones that are the same today as they were back then.

Carolyn

[RJGlew]

I took very few pictures of my 2017 CZ Stupické Polní Rané versus NA Stupice grow off - Stupické Polní Rané from four different CZ vendors (Moravoseed, Semo, Sempra & Seva) vs "North American Stupice" from two very reputable NA seeds sources, with one of each variety grown in 2 separate physical locations. I did manage to find a few photos on my phone and here are a couple to support my earlier statements about the differences between them. Both photos were taken on the same day in early July, at the same location with the tape measure sitting directly on top of the 1st fruit truss. I have blown up & added highlight bars in the first photo to show the enormous difference in fruit size between the CZ and NA varieties. Both locations were the same wrt fruit size. I have also included the two original pictures at the bottom in hopes you can detect the greater amount of foliage with the NA Stupice. My son was pulling back a couple of leaves to expose the fruit on the NA Stupice, while the CZ picture was taken exactly as it was growing.

I have also included some of my 2017 grow data for the varieties as well. Seeds were planted on April 16th. `Germ' is the # of days for the first seed leaves to appear, and the two `Days' columns next to "Flower Date" and "Blush Date" show the # of days after the first seed leaves appeared to the Flower/Blush event. DTM is the standard measure calculated as the # of days to first blush after planting them out on June 3rd. All of this data is for the `best' performer of each variety since I had the 2 physical growing locations. As I noted earlier, the DTM for the CZ varieties were all pretty much the same, except for Seva which was better in both locations. The NA `Stupice' were slower to grow/mature, had smaller fruit, and for me, did not taste as good. I could not detect any taste difference beween the 4 CZ strains. My Stupické Polní Rané seeds were all sourced from CZ, but I did mention before that Tatiana sells Seva Stupické Polní Rané from seed originally provided to her by Vladimir in 2014.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...cke_Polni_Rane

Note that Vladimir constantly reminds us that Stupické Polní Rané (Moravo) is what we currently call "Moravsky Div" in North America. Tatiana has verified the same.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Moravsky_Div

[Black Krim]

You did an amazing job documenting the details of each of these. A nice comparison to see the
CZ plants are different than the NA Stupice. You proved my suspision. Thank you for the post, that was a lot of work.

[RJGlew]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I have a lot of catching up to do in the later pages in this thread, and that b/c I do have alternative opinions on comments made about genetic drift and changes made in specific varieties in just several decades,when I know of varieties that were pre-1900 ones that are the same today as they were back then.

Carolyn

With all due respect, please review the following:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....&postcount=122

My point in bringing this up is that your 2014 introduction of MD was in fact a re-introduction of Stupické Polní Rané (Moravoseed) which has subsequantly been viewed as being quite separate from NA Stupice - better taste, etc. I believe the original Stupice seed was brought to NA in the 1990s, so it apparently had changed quite significantly between then & 2014 to have a seasoned expert like yourself view them as separate varieties. Vladimir has reminded us a number of times that Stupické Polní Rané (Moravo) is what we currently call "Moravsky Div" in North America, and Tatiana has verified the same (below).

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Moravsky_Div

[RJGlew]

Originally Posted by BlackBear

ok ok just a few more
1) check out " 0-33 " introduced by Tatianas in 2015 .

2) and yes I agree ....Krayniy Sever is a great one also .

I agree that 0-33 is the best of the Saraev's. Vladimir and I did a Saraev grow off in 2016 with the following varieties: Saraev 0-33, Saraev Druzhnya, Saraev Gruntovye, Saraev I-2, Saraev M-22, Saraev Otbor 1, Saraev Shtambovyi, and Saraev Stoikiy. My best that year were 0-33 and Druzhnya which I grew multiples of in 2017. This year I will only grow 0-33 since a had a lot of splitting with Druzhnya in 2017. The skin literally fall off these 2 when blanched, making them very easy to process. Vladimir had good luck with some of the other varieties. They are all acidic.

Krainiy Sever is on my 2018 grow list so I am glad to hear you liked it.

A great surprise for me in 2017 was Sasha's Altai from Tatiana. Her seed source was Mark Oathout of Wasilla, and these were a really fine tasting early determinate variety. They were less acidic than 0-33.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Sasha%27s_Altai

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by RJGlew

I agree that 0-33 is the best of the Saraev's. Vladimir and I did a Saraev grow off in 2016 with the following varieties: Saraev 0-33, Saraev Druzhnya, Saraev Gruntovye, Saraev I-2, Saraev M-22, Saraev Otbor 1, Saraev Shtambovyi, and Saraev Stoikiy. My best that year were 0-33 and Druzhnya which I grew multiples of in 2017. This year I will only grow 0-33 since a had a lot of splitting with Druzhnya in 2017. The skin literally fall off these 2 when blanched, making them very easy to process. Vladimir had good luck with some of the other varieties. They are all acidic.

Krainiy Sever is on my 2018 grow list so I am glad to hear you liked it.

A great surprise for me in 2017 was Sasha's Altai from Tatiana. Her seed source was Mark Oathout of Wasilla, and these were a really fine tasting early determinate variety. They were less acidic than 0-33.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Sasha%27s_Altai

1) Wow ! Excellent documentation and presentation regarding the stupice changes.

For me ...I just seemed to notice a plant source with different attributes ...AND the earliness was not there anymore .

2) Most interesting results/ feedback for "0-33" I recognized it as interesting
but your results ...highlite how interesting.

3) Thanks again for the Imur Prior Beta seeds a few seasons back.

4) Sasha's Altai was consistently early for me ...but very mild flavor
I prefer a bit more acid , zing etc, so I was leaning toward Cosmonaut volkov

as I was able to get early results/ fruit set in container as well with stupice.
(But it appears stupice is "changing/drifting " )

[GrowingCoastal]

I grew both Sasha's Altai and 0-33 the following year. I found both to be fairly sweet and delicious. Sasha's Altai got PM early and finished early. 0-33 did not and kept on going.

[DonDuck]

I planted my fifth generation Moravsky Div saved seed on Jan 6. I had germination about seven days later and the seedlings are about three inches tall under lights. I will plant out mid to late March with a mid may first harvest. Since the tomatoes are high quality in taste and production, I will enjoy them until June when the larger varieties start to ripen. After the large varieties start ripening, the MD's will be ignored in favor of the sandwich sized tomatoes. They will be harvested through the summer and mostly given away. I have friends who prefer the smaller tomatoes all year.

[Andrey_BY]

That's all great work, but I don't confused, because I always say there were 4 different Stupicke varieties bred in 1950s in Czechoslovakia. 2 of them had been officially released and been widely popular in Warsaw Pact countries including Soviet Union.

I named Moravsky Div like this introducing to NA, because I've got the seeds from Russian vendor translated like this, but it has been still distributing in Russia and Belarus under the name Moravskoe Choodo (Moravian Wonder). It is one of the Stupicke varieties.

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by GrowingCoastal

I grew both Sasha's Altai and 0-33 the following year. I found both to be fairly sweet and delicious. Sasha's Altai got PM early and finished early. 0-33 did not and kept on going.

Still ..Sasha's Altai was useful.....producing out fruit early till the rest early /midseason

Varieties Kicked into production ...