Tomatoville® Gardening Forums


Notices

General information and discussion about cultivating fruit-bearing plants, trees, flowers and ornamental plants.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 22, 2017   #1
Medbury Gardens
Tomatovillian™
 
Medbury Gardens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Medbury, New Zealand
Posts: 1,881
Default Pêche de Vigne (Black Boy Peach)

This is a common fruit both here and in Lyonnais region of France, but i'm noticing that the fruit is not the same colour as the fruit of my childhood. The photo showing a pile of fruit is the type you only seem to be able to get nowadays but most is whiter again, the other photo is how i remember them, pretty much solid colour. My thinking on this is that the trees you either buy from a nursery or get given have been crossed with other peaches along the line somewhere and because they are not a long lived tree most of the old trees would be long gone, so its going to be hard to find the original strain, unless someone has some trees in a remote area where they cant cross.

Got talking about this subject on FB where a woman said a nursery told her that they start off mostly white and get darker red/purple as they get hard.... really?? Can a fruit tree change colour or is the nurseryman pulling the wool over her eyes?






__________________
Richard




Medbury Gardens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #2
loulac
Tomatovillian™
 
loulac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: France
Posts: 554
Default

Every region in France with wineyards will have its own peche de vigne, which explains the differences you have noticed. Peche de vigne has become a vague label, just like oxheart, bull's***, Russian tomato etc. A common point : bury a stone in the soil and you will get the exact variety.
All the best
loulac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #3
Cole_Robbie
Tomatovillian™
 
Cole_Robbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois, zone 6
Posts: 8,407
Default

bury a stone in the soil and you will get the exact variety.

Yes, but if you want it to grow well, I'm almost positive you'll need to graft it to a different root stock, typically pear. Peaches are native to China; obviously there must be places they grow wild without being grafted, but as far as I know, all commercial peach production is done on grafted trees.
Cole_Robbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #4
loulac
Tomatovillian™
 
loulac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: France
Posts: 554
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie View Post
as far as I know, all commercial peach production is done on grafted trees.
I quite agree with your statement. The fact is that professional growers have jumped on the present tendency to get back to "natural" fruit and have created an industrial peche de vigne, just as they created a heavily ribbed oxheart when the original cuor de bue is perfectly smooth. In old times vine growers never cared about grafting a peach tree in a vineyard, it grew by itself and was not uprooted when it was not a nuisance. By the way I didn't know they could be grafted on a pear tree. When grafted on a peach tree their life is very short, In my place they are grafted on almond trees or plum trees. Glad to discover new horizons !
loulac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #5
Medbury Gardens
Tomatovillian™
 
Medbury Gardens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Medbury, New Zealand
Posts: 1,881
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loulac View Post
Every region in France with wineyards will have its own peche de vigne, which explains the differences you have noticed. Peche de vigne has become a vague label, just like oxheart, bull's***, Russian tomato etc. A common point : bury a stone in the soil and you will get the exact variety.
All the best
This is the problem, a lot people do just that and so many of the trees we see today now have fruit with so little colour, this is because most growers who will plant a BBP often will grow other peaches along side which then cross pollinate, they share stones with others and so on and so on. I will find an old strain soon and when i do ive got an area that i will plant them in, its a dead end road that leads down to a river which only a few fishermen use, there's no other fruit trees within 2km and has a central pivot irrigation system in the paddocks next to it, this jets water out across the road for about 200 metres along, plans are to plant a few down each side of this which will insure the seed remains true to type.
__________________
Richard




Medbury Gardens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #6
Medbury Gardens
Tomatovillian™
 
Medbury Gardens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Medbury, New Zealand
Posts: 1,881
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie View Post
bury a stone in the soil and you will get the exact variety.

Yes, but if you want it to grow well, I'm almost positive you'll need to graft it to a different root stock, typically pear. Peaches are native to China; obviously there must be places they grow wild without being grafted, but as far as I know, all commercial peach production is done on grafted trees.
No its quite common here for gardeners to share peach stones and grow there own, they grow just fine just like apples plums and pears will also. 29 out of 30 fruit trees in my orchard are either seed grown or from suckers. I think the commercial fruit tree growers have done great job of convincing people that only grafted trees will grow properly, load of crap, unless you are wanting dwarf trees.
__________________
Richard




Medbury Gardens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #7
KarenO
Tomatovillian™
 
KarenO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 5,918
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Medbury Gardens View Post
No its quite common here for gardeners to share peach stones and grow there own, they grow just fine just like apples plums and pears will also. 29 out of 30 fruit trees in my orchard are either seed grown or from suckers. I think the commercial fruit tree growers have done great job of convincing people that only grafted trees will grow properly, load of crap, unless you are wanting dwarf trees.
load of crap indeed. Not so subtle efforts have been employed to convince the world that nobody can produce a viable true breeding seed or breed a new variety except a handful of seed companies since the beginning of the 20th century. I know few gardeners who save seed and that's a shame.
That dark fruit is the most beautiful peach I have ever seen and the red juice in the canned ones... wow.
I would love to taste those
KarenO
KarenO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #8
Medbury Gardens
Tomatovillian™
 
Medbury Gardens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Medbury, New Zealand
Posts: 1,881
Default

They taste so different to any other peach Karen, you ever get a chance to get a tree you should do so.
__________________
Richard




Medbury Gardens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #9
Cole_Robbie
Tomatovillian™
 
Cole_Robbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Illinois, zone 6
Posts: 8,407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Medbury Gardens View Post
I think the commercial fruit tree growers have done great job of convincing people that only grafted trees will grow properly, load of crap, unless you are wanting dwarf trees.
It's a function of one's soil. Southern Illinois, where I live, has a clay that is too heavy for peach roots to penetrate. But we have a fairly thriving peach orchard industry, because grafting allows the trees to grow well here. My guess is that it's the same in the state of Georgia, which is famous for its peaches.
Cole_Robbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #10
PhilaGardener
Tomatovillian™
 
PhilaGardener's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,940
Default

The fancy name is "Terrior"
PhilaGardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #11
Medbury Gardens
Tomatovillian™
 
Medbury Gardens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Medbury, New Zealand
Posts: 1,881
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie View Post
It's a function of one's soil. Southern Illinois, where I live, has a clay that is too heavy for peach roots to penetrate. But we have a fairly thriving peach orchard industry, because grafting allows the trees to grow well here. My guess is that it's the same in the state of Georgia, which is famous for its peaches.
Thats interesting, then again how would seed grown trees go? do people in your area do much growing from stones?

I cant grow stone fruit on my land because during a high rainfall winter, the water table below can get as high as a shovel depth down, we are on alluvial out wash from the alps where water flows close to the surface. Stone fruit dont like the roots sitting in water, thats why i'm growing a few them not far from here.
__________________
Richard




Medbury Gardens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 23, 2017   #12
Medbury Gardens
Tomatovillian™
 
Medbury Gardens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Medbury, New Zealand
Posts: 1,881
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilaGardener View Post
The fancy name is "Terrior"
Certainly no doubt the soil and climate influences the flavours of a wide range of crops to any given region. I dont see this being the reason why a peach variety seems to be losing its flesh colour with each new generation of trees
__________________
Richard




Medbury Gardens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2017   #13
Worth1
Tomatovillian™
 
Worth1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Den of Drunken Fools
Posts: 38,539
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenO View Post
load of crap indeed. Not so subtle efforts have been employed to convince the world that nobody can produce a viable true breeding seed or breed a new variety except a handful of seed companies since the beginning of the 20th century. I know few gardeners who save seed and that's a shame.
That dark fruit is the most beautiful peach I have ever seen and the red juice in the canned ones... wow.
I would love to taste those
KarenO
This is why I sometimes use store bought eating beans for seed stock.
Depending on what that bean is.
Some there are no hybrids so to speak.
Like the roman aka cranberry beans and many others.
Or even the store bought habanero peppers.
Pecans that is a toss up as to what you get.
Seems to me if you get one from an orchard that has many good types you will get good types from seed.
Many are even advertised as a cross between X and X pecan.
Worth
Worth1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 24, 2017   #14
PhilaGardener
Tomatovillian™
 
PhilaGardener's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Medbury Gardens View Post
Certainly no doubt the soil and climate influences the flavours of a wide range of crops to any given region. I dont see this being the reason why a peach variety seems to be losing its flesh colour with each new generation of trees
Agreed - soil and climate do affect fruiting and flavor, but it is likely that this variety of peach is actually a distributed landrace of sorts. (Joseph will like that! ) For folks that don't do grafting, plant a pit (sounds like a new slogan) is easy, and diversity follows.

If you can find some nice trees with great color and taste, those could be preserved as scion wood and grafted onto long lived rootstocks (and perhaps even crossed to further select for flavorable traits).
PhilaGardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 25, 2017   #15
loulac
Tomatovillian™
 
loulac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: France
Posts: 554
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilaGardener View Post
For folks that don't do grafting, plant a pit (sounds like a new slogan) is easy, and diversity follows.
I quite agree, diversity is likely to follow, just like in Las Vegas you may win or you may lose. When century old vineyards have year after year grown peach trees coming from pits fallen far enough from the trajectory of horses pulling plows you can expect to get the same variety if you plant a pit. Unfortunately it can't be a general rule, grafting is still the safest way to reproduce a variety unless a great great grandfather has left proof that generations of fruit trees have come from stones, pits, pips etc. Besides, if there was no risk of errant pollination in old vineyards it's no longer true in our gardens.

Last edited by loulac; January 25, 2017 at 12:42 PM. Reason: spelling
loulac is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:15 PM.


★ Tomatoville® is a registered trademark of Commerce Holdings, LLC ★ All Content ©2022 Commerce Holdings, LLC ★