The use of TSP versus Oxi Clean

[amideutch]

This is a paper Tom Wagner wrote on the above subject in seed saving. Ami

The use of TSP (trisodium phosphate) versus Oxi Clean.

I have been on record of favoring TSP in the use of cleaning tomato and potato seed in the (fresh) seed extraction methodologies. Of late some folks are proposing the use of Oxyclean or Oxi Clean as an alternative. Herein, I will attempt to dispense.

Sometimes there is so much confusion on the Internet that one must call manufacturers of products to clarify spellings of a material and its intended usage. I called the Melrose Chemical Company, which supplies Oxyclean. Their product, a liquid product used as a chlorinated cleaner contains:

* Potassium hydroxide (KOH), commonly known as caustic potash,
* Sodium hydroxide also known as lye, caustic soda
* Sodium hypochlorite, commonly known as bleach,

I called another company; Church & Dwight Co., Inc. that markets Oxi Clean. The OxiClean compound’s main ingredient is a powder, a solidified form of hydrogen peroxide and surfactants, or detergents The main ingredients are
1.sodium percarbonate,
2.soda ash
3.and some little blue grains, (causes suds to fight more stains)


Oxi Magic has
1.Clorox and
2.oxygen activators


The problem I have found is that different products with similar names abound. But for the issue at hand, note that Oxyclean is not Oxi Clean!!!

Do any of the manufacturers claim any of the chemical qualities of TSP? No!
Do any of the manufacturers claim Oxyclean or Oxi Clean in seed treatment use? No!
Oxyclean is likely not what people are using to clean seed. It is used in C.I.P. cleaning in food industries, especially in vessel cleaning. It is a liquid.

So what is this Oxi Clean powder? To wit:
Quote:
Sodium percarbonate is a white crystalline water-soluble chemical compound of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. It is an oxidizing agent and ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products. Despite the name, it is, in fact, a carbonate perhydrate. Dissolved in water, it releases H2O2 and soda ash (sodium carbonate):
Since Oxi Clean doesn’t have a chlorine base, it is less harsh on your skin

* Making water wetter
* Making oil stains soluble in water
* Emulsifying oils
* Lifting stains off surfaces
* Hydrogen peroxide is at best a mild antiseptic and oxidizing agent, and bleaching agent. .
* H2O2 is not Na3PO4·12H2O (TSP)

Is Soda ash and hydrogen peroxide as powerful as TSP? No, not for cleaning fresh seed.
What are some of the methods to use when preparing fresh seed during and after extraction?

Ageing: It works wonders. Allow the seed to rest for a year or more before sowing. Less disease than freshly sown seed after extraction.

TSP dissolves the gel around the seed coat, lifts organic oils and the sprout inhibitor compounds, helps kill organisms on the surfaces and crevices. Any infected seed will be more likely to float off in the water rinsing. TSP is highly caustic, so wear rubber gloves.
Some seed in solanaceous crops such as potatoes, tomatoes and pepper, traded from folks not treating their seed may be soaked for 15 minutes in a 10% solution of trisodium phosphate followed by a 30 minutes soak in a 10% solution of household bleach as a disinfectant. I prefer to do this at seed extraction time, however.

Hot water treatment. About 122 F for about 20 minutes helps kill viral organisms in the seed endosperm.

Rinse and dry.

Trying to put a single treatise together when there is some disagreement on issues requires one to bring forth the research and belabor it a bit.

TSP is available in paint stores, but it does seem to disappear in some of the major outlets, especially if they are beset by liberal activists denouncing sales of phosphates. You can find TSP if you call around for it by name and insist on purity.

I care about the health of seed. I care about growing organically if I can. But TSP is indispensable to me as I want to ensure/insure seed quality, and allows me some peace of mind. The Tobacco Mosaic troubles of a decade ago and the oncoming onslaughts of contaminants will further convince me of the need.

Potatoes grown from true seed is in a microcosm of larger events. TSP is uniquely deserving as a seed primer.


Tom Wagner

[Mischka]

I'm a big fan of the TSP method.

I have to drive over the state line to purchase it since it's banned here in Massachusetts and several other states. All cleaning detergents with a high phosphate content were removed from store shelves or reformulated to comply with EPA recommendations.

Phosphates cause exponential algae growth in water supplies, among other things.

[mdvpc]

I learned how to use TSP from Tom's postings, and have excellent germination rates. Its the only method I use now.

[phreddy]

I would be happy to use TSP if I could find a source.
Is it just the chemical (trisodium phosphate) or is it a trade name? With Oxy-whatever I have been able to find many a generic as Tom Wagner says but not TSP based cleaners.

Now that I am in Malaysia I will look again, see what I can find.

[dice]

Is it just the chemical (trisodium phosphate) or is it a trade name?

Both, here. Some brands call it "TSP Wall Cleaner" and similar
for a product name. (Used pre-paint, etc, to clean off stuff that
would interefere with good adhesion.)

[phreddy]

Thanks Dice, could use some of that here, we are redecorating at the moment.

[ContainerTed]

Years ago, it was easy to get. My parents house and my house as well used to use a product called "Spic and Span". You can still find the brand name today, but the TSP has been removed from the formula.

[elkwc36]

TSP is hard to get here. And you have to wear rubber gloves. I use the Oxi clean and then a Clorine soak for two minutes as recommended by a seed saver and it works fine. I'm even soaking all seeds in a clorine soak that I receive. Don't hurt to be cautious. I feel it is a matter of preference as both seem to work well. JMO

[tantaw0]

I am relatively new to this form and this may have been covered a thousand times but I know we all like to use bottom heat to start our tomatoes, peppers and eggplant seeds. I just purchased a "reptile mat" that is designed to be put on the bottom of the container that snakes are kept in. It has adjustable heat, three settings, and just seemed like something that would work for starting seeds. It is 8"X18" and is waterproof. I paid $27.95 plus shipping for it.

If anyone is interested I will be happy to furnish the name of the company I bought it from.

Dave

[amideutch]

tantaw0, No problem as I was little confused when I started posting in forums. If you have something you would like to post but am unsure where to post it you can do one of two things. Go to the applicable forum which you did and either start a new thread (Topic) or you can do a search and see if anybody has started a thread previously on heat mats.
So if you do a search on "Heat mat" you will get a list of threads that have used the phrase (Heat Mat). The first thread you will find is this thread as you made a post on heat mats here. You go down the list you will see a thread started by TomatoDon entitled "Selecting Heat Mats". This thread is probably more appropriate for the posting you made than this thread. It can be intimidating at times but you will get the hang of it. By the way, welcome to TVille. Ami

[phreddy]

Couldn't find anything to clean down with here. Man in paint shop didn't see the need, "Just wash with soap!" he says.
I will wait until I get to UK in March and see what is there. We certainly wash down our paint work there for a better grip. It used to be 'sugar soap' whatever that is. I wasn't interested in what was in it then.

[dice]

TSP is a good degreaser that leaves no soap film behind when
you rinse it off. (Grease and soap both inhibit good paint
adhesion.) A furniture refinisher might have some around (takes
off smoke, grease, and old furniture wax/polish before doing
touch-up painting or staining).

Edit:
(You could ask for a recommendation for a good refinisher at
an antiques shop that has lots of old woodwork. Matching colors
to antique wood stain when touching up is an art; antiques dealers
usually don't do it themselves.)

[feldon30]

Tom Wagner's posting about TSP vs Oxiclean is sourced from this thread about True Potato Seeds (which unfortunately never saw a conclusion -- I was hoping for a planting schedule and growing instructions for TPS as I was hoping to try out the seeds Tom sent me):
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=6761&page=2

My understanding of Tom Wagner's viewpoint is that TSP has had extensive testing in the industry with regards to cleaning disease and other issues from seeds. Oxiclean (essentially powdered hydrogen peroxide) has not. So it's not that there is evidence that Oxiclean is ineffective, only that it remains untested.

I have access to TSP or Oxiclean. I guess I could use either. I understand that Mischka uses an elaborate process with TSP that is beyond the complexity and time I am willing to invest. I use Oxiclean because with about 30 minutes total time invested from squeezing the tomato, I've got a plate of clean seeds. I can batch process a half dozen varieties in less than an hour. The unpredictability and mess of fermentation was getting to be a real problem.


Frankly, these days my biggest problem is not with seed germination -- for I am getting nearly 100% with Oxiclean -- but with cross-pollination. And viable solutions in hot, humid climates seem limited. If I use isolation bags or any sort of netting, I have been advised that the slightly increased humidity/stagnant air around the plants will reduce or eliminate pollination of blossoms. If I had hundreds of plants, I could make this sacrifice, but I may have as few as 20 plants next spring due to one of my beds essentially having to lie fallow due to some type of disease issue.

I have always heard 5-10% cross-pollination, but why does it always happen to the varieties I am most interested in?

[ddsack]

If I use isolation bags or any sort of netting, I have been advised that the slightly increased humidity/stagnant air around the plants will reduce or eliminate pollination of blossoms.

Feldon, at the risk of hijacking this thread, an idea popped into my mind, though I don't know if it would work. Would it make a difference in pollination success, if the bags were only on during the day, and could be removed at night. I don't know what the rate of pollination by night insects like moths is, I guess I always assumed it was the daytime bee types that did most of the work. If you had, say, 1 bagged cluster per plant, and had 10 plants to deal with, it would be a pain to tie/untie 10 bags morning and night, but if it was only for a period of a 5-7 days, it might be worth it. Any one know if night pollinators are working the tomatoes? Plus the extra jiggling in tieing the bags might help in pollination.

[dice]

[humidity vs blossom bagging]
I was thinking you could put dehumidifier of some kind in the
bags. 4 mesh Drierite would stay in there without falling
out. I don't know if it would last more than a day, though,
before it was saturated in your humidity, requiring you to
remove the bags, replace the Drierite, etc. (It can be
reconditioned in an oven.)

Kind of a hassle, but you only need to do it until you see
fruitset.