Peppers. Acidifying the soil.

[b54red]

My beds have become too alkaline over time and I have been trying to correct that over the last couple of years. My soil was once very acidic and needed a fair amount of lime and I even had to use quick lime early on to bring the acidic levels down. When the soil got where it was supposed to be I quit adding lime but did put in tons of fresh mushroom compost over a four year period and that really spiked up my alkaline levels.

Three years ago I tested all of my beds because I was having problems with iron deficiency showing in some of my tomatoes even though I knew there was plenty of iron in the soil. Turned out my beds had a PH of between 7.6 and 8.4. I'm sure a lot of micro-nutrients were not available to many of my tomatoes and peppers despite decent production. I also noticed that some of my more acidic varieties were getting a bit too mild. I started using a lot of cottonseed meal as my main source of fertilizer and my soil is gradually getting more acidic.

Last year I tried using a vinegar-water feeding on all of my peppers and tomatoes. It really did seem to perk up some of my peppers and they became much darker and healthier looking. It also seemed to help many of my larger tomatoes and much of the iron deficiency symptoms went away. The problem was on some of my smaller newer tomato plants. Within a couple of days after receiving the vinegar-water feeding they changed color and started getting really sick looking. Most of them died within a few weeks but they had the look of plants that had taken in too much of some type of element. I don't know but I think what happened is they received a massive dose of P that must have been released by the vinegar or maybe iron. I really don't have any idea what the element or combination of elements was that caused the discoloration of the leaves and the eventual death of the plants. Since being the foolish gardener I am I treated all of the plants to the same treatment without doing a testing batch first. I believe the problem was the younger plants just couldn't handle the amount of nutrients or trace elements that became available suddenly while the larger more mature tomatoes thrived from it.

I don't think this would happen with soil that is closer to the correct PH; but if your soil is way too alkaline be careful and use very dilute vinegar and gradually add it over time so you don't have the problem I had. Since I do staggered plantings and had all ages of plants getting the treatment at the same time I only lost a few plants; but I feel like if I had done this earlier when all I had was young freshly transplanted seedlings I might have had a real disaster on my hands.

Since my soil is still too alkaline I will probably be adding the vinegar again but will limit it to larger tomatoes which it helped and too peppers which really seemed to benefit the most from the vinegar.

Bill

[Durgan]

I have been giving my peppers a vinegar drink for about seven years. I don't grow hot peppers any more, but found the results on the hot types to be even more remarkable in that the quality and quantity of fruit increased considerably.

One other thing I noticed is don't apply the vinegar until the plants are fairly large or they die. This means only apply when they are planted outdoors. I grow the peppers since they thrive so well. I get so many that I have trouble using them.

Before the advent of using vinegar, I would get one or two twisted fruit on each plant. Usually I grow around eight plants.

[Stvrob]

What is the maximum value that limestone can raise the pH to? in other words, if your garden were just granular limestone, what would its pH be? I measure the pH of deep very old artesian water from a limestone aquifer quite routinely and it is normally in the range of 7.6 to 7.9, and bicarbonate, sulfate, calcium and magnesium are the major ions.

[mdvpc]

Bill-curious about how much vinegar per gallon you used, and how you applied it.

[RayR]

Yep, a too rapid change in PH will have an adverse effect on plants and the microbial community.
I had used a Apple Cider vinegar solution on Tomato plants in-ground which i understand is less acidic than white vinegar. There were no negative effects that I could see. I never tried it on peppers.
I did use Espoma Holly-Tone on squash last summer, they did seem to green up more with the an acidic fertilizer. I might try that again way before planting to allow the elemental sulfur in the Holly-Tone to oxidize.
I also tried Espoma Iron-Tone which also contains elemental sulfur on Tomato plants in-ground last summer and they seemed to like that too.
Elemental sulfur is a better choice than vinegar because it causes a gradual lowering of PH over time and sulfur is a plant nutrient too. In my case it may be lacking in my soil also. The PH of my soil tends to be around 7.3, not too bad but I would like it a bit lower.

[b54red]

I always used sulfur in the trenches when planting potatoes to help with scab. I use sulfur sometimes against spider mites early in the year when the temps are not too high. Basically I fear that I might put too much out and have the reverse problem of soil that is too acidic. I kind of like having the option of temporarily lowering the acidity to release needed nutrients without risking getting my whole garden too acidic because if I get too much sulfur in the soil I would be replacing one problem with another.

The amount of vinegar I used per gallon of water was only and ounce or maybe two per gallon. I applied it with a hose end sprayer and only used about two quarts of vinegar for the whole garden. As I said it had nothing but good results on everything but young tomato plants so I don't really fear using it again. The cottonseed meal is really working to lower the alkalinity but it will take some time to get it down where I would like it. Since tomatoes are my favorite crop I would like the soil as close to ideal for them as possible.

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by RayR

I had used a Apple Cider vinegar solution on Tomato plants in-ground which i understand is less acidic than white vinegar.

It seems to depend on the brand. I just looked at the two bottle of vinegar I have, one white, one apple cider. The white is 4% acetic acid and the apple cider vinegar is 5%.
I've also seen both that where 3.75% and apple cider vinegar that was distilled vinegar with cider flavoring.

[drew51]

This is an old thread I was reading while freezing here in MI. Anyway vinegar only lasts about 2 weeks at most, then it's gone. it's broken down and the alkalinity returns to what it was. Which is fine, and it's hard to mess up. But when I use vinegar I use a lot less like 1/2 tablespoon per gallon. I myself use sulfur. I grow blueberries too. And on the orchard forum we looked hard into what to use. Vinegar ties up the bicarbs for 2 weeks then bacteria break down acetic acid. The bicarbs are again released. this info is all over the web. Sulfur binds with the bicarb and makes gypsum, so removes it completely from the soil. PH change is permanent. Tap water contains all kinds of bicarbs so if using that, it will over time increase your PH.
I acidify my water with sulfuric acid if I can't use rainwater. I have a meter so I often check soil, water etc.

Also to note is peat moss is very acidic so if using potting mixes with a lot of peat, you're starting out with acidic soil.
Cottonseed meal as mentioned and Holly-tone are great choices to acidify and feed. Good for blueberries too!

Citric acid is another option, it too though breaks down. it is used a lot with pesticides. most pesticides work better in acidic water. Captan will hardly work at all if not mixed in acidic water. I use it on strawberries with fungal infections and for scab on peaches.

[Worth1]

I started a thread about this subject some time ago.

My plants weren't doing anything so I did a soil test.
It came out around 7.5 or 8 it could have been more.

I spread out iornite and ran vinegar through my ORTHO dial and spray on its most concentrated setting.

The soil bubbled and foamed and in about 48 hours the tomato plants exploded with new growth.
This wasn't to make the soil acidic it was to bring it down from alkaline.

Last year I mixed a little peat moss around each plant and this seemed to help too.

I truly believe that part of this alkalinity is from the heavily chlorinated water we have.

Worth

[Labradors2]

Worth,

Have you thought about setting up a rain barrel and collecting water from your roof for watering your tomatoes?

Linda

Originally Posted by Worth1

I truly believe that part of this alkalinity is from the heavily chlorinated water we have.

Worth

[drew51]

Most city water systems add alkalinity to the water as acidic water eats' pipes. It adds heavy metals such as copper to the water, so it's not just for the safety of the pipes. Rain water is great to use, but it also is acidic and aluminum, zinc and other metals can be found in it. Metal from gutters, welds in gutters, nails in roof, and gutter, etc. I still have about 20 gallons of rain water stored. I collect it for my plants, even house plants. it's nice not to have any deposits on my pots and such. If I use tap I put sulfuric acid in it.

[Ken4230]

Originally Posted by drew51

Sulfur binds with the bicarb and makes gypsum, so removes it completely from the soil. PH change is permanent. Tap water contains all kinds of bicarbs so if using that, it will over time increase your PH.

Are you saying that sulfur is a better solution, I've never used it so i know absolutely nothing about it. I don't use peat moss, but i do use pine bark and lots of oak leaves.
Thanks for bumping this.

Ken

Edit: I use the vinegar about once a month.

[RayR]

Originally Posted by Worth1

I started a thread about this subject some time ago.

My plants weren't doing anything so I did a soil test.
It came out around 7.5 or 8 it could have been more.

I spread out iornite and ran vinegar through my ORTHO dial and spray on its most concentrated setting.

The soil bubbled and foamed and in about 48 hours the tomato plants exploded with new growth.
This wasn't to make the soil acidic it was to bring it down from alkaline.

Last year I mixed a little peat moss around each plant and this seemed to help too.

I truly believe that part of this alkalinity is from the heavily chlorinated water we have.

Worth

Worth, a quick check on the soil types around Austin show they are predominately carbonatic and calcareous soils. That would account for the high alkalinity. Your tap water may contribute some if it has a lot of dissolved carbonates also, raising the PH a little more.

[drew51]

Originally Posted by Ken4230

Are you saying that sulfur is a better solution, I've never used it so i know absolutely nothing about it. I don't use peat moss, but i do use pine bark and lots of oak leaves.

Originally Posted by Ken4230

Thanks for bumping this.

Ken

Edit: I use the vinegar about once a month.

Better is a strong word, using vinegar once a month will work. If you over do it, it soon will change. If you overdo the sulfur you have to flush it out. In ground it's hard to make it too acidic, as the natural area PH is always fighting to come back. In pot's it's easy to use too much sulfur. Raised beds is somewhere in-between. The vinegar works right away, sulfur takes 6 months. Well elemental sulfur. If say you used Ammonium sulfate the PH drop is immediate. This works great for blueberries that love nitrogen anyway. Not so good for peppers or tomatoes. My magic tomato/pepper booster is calcium nitrate. Just a side note, nitrate hurt blueberries, you have to use another form of nitrogen. Pine bark is neutral really, oak leaves is slightly acidic. Try cottonseed meal, or to add a bit of sulfur use Holly-Tone, It has organic fertilizer, sulfur, and beneficial fungi and bacteria. An excellent product.
Elemental sulfur is extreme, takes 6 months to work, so does little good for you at the moment. Keep using vinegar! My concern is if you use tap water, and your soil is naturally basic, you are fighting a long term losing battle. Some sulfur to permanently move PH down makes sense for a long term solution. Just enough so your PH is never going to soar to 7.5 or higher.
A couple of other points; all gardening is local, and if it's not broke don't fix it. If you find your PH creeping up on you, look at the options I mention.

[drew51]

One of the reasons us blueberry growers looked into this is that blueberries grow best at 5.0! They can grow at 6.0 or higher, but really do not grow well. So using vinegar just doesn't make it. We need to knock the PH down and keep it there. Even 4.5 is fine for blueberries Sulfur is a must for blueberries. Feeding them is a pain. Compost tends to drive towards neutral, not helping us! And while at a PH of 5.0 absorbing nutrients is tough. Very little can be absorbed. So hitting them with Ammonium sulfate (21-0-0) makes sense as a huge amount of nitrogen is there for them to absorb some! Cacti also like it. But you can kill them easy. I use 1/4 teaspoon per 2.5 gallons about 8 times a season.
You could hit them with one teaspoon once a month, but I prefer to feed them every watering with a limit of 2 feeds a month at half that 1 teaspoon dose, just to be safe.
I guess I don't use it at every watering. They get nitrogen from organic sources too. The product otherwise except maybe for corn is not much good for anything else.
Now if you live where your ground is already 5.0 you don't need sulfur. My soil is 6.5.
I use raised beds, it's too hard to grow them in 6.5 soil. I use 3 parts peat, 1 part pine bark fines, 1 part coir, 1 part pumice. That mix has a PH of 5.0. I add sulfur, trace minerals also. My PH runs between 4.5 and 5.0. If it goes above 5.0 I add more sulfur. If it dips below 4.5 I water with tap water which adds carbonates and raises PH. Otherwise strictly rainwater. It's worth it, blueberries are awesome. I make a mean black and blue jam! (homegrown or wild blackberries and blueberries).