Growing in Non-Food Safe Containers - Page 2

Rockporter · May 30, 2012

I think growing in my Lowe's gray buckets is fine, there isn't any brining really going on in mine. I use rain water but even if I were to use the well water with salt in it I don't see it as causing much of a concern. There isn't any real brining happening when you just use water with a bit of salt in it because it isn't causing a fermentation process. My buckets are self watering so they hold a reservoir of water. when I empty my buckets at the end of a growing season I feel no difference in the water or see any difference than as if I just watered them. But of course, the human eye can't see some teeny tiny microbes or particles or what not, I still don't have any concern about using the buckets. I went with Lowe's buckets because of their color.

whistler · June 19, 2012

An update... I decided to use 7 gallon grow bags inside of the orange HD buckets. The bags should provide a barrier between the mix and the bucket, and the bucket will provide support for the grow bags. I know they can stand on their own, but since I have the buckets I might as well use them.

4tanks1 · June 19, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by whistler

An update... I decided to use 7 gallon grow bags inside of the orange HD buckets. The bags should provide a barrier between the mix and the bucket, and the bucket will provide support for the grow bags. I know they can stand on their own, but since I have the buckets I might as well use them.

So did you go and purchase 200 grow bags too?

whistler · June 20, 2012

I bought a case of 400. Used 90 this season, plenty left for future expansion. Between the grey and orange buckets, I have 130 buckets in my driveway. Still have space to park 4 cars, though. Might be able to squeeze in another 40 buckets next year

Or maybe I'll move and get a bigger driveway.

casserole · June 20, 2012

You can see I use The Homer buckets

whistler · June 21, 2012

For those who asked, I bought the 7 gallon plastic grow bags from Greenhouse Megastore, case of 400 came to about $153 including shipping - not quite 40 cents per bag. The smaller quantities of 10 were also reasonably priced.

swinefka · June 27, 2012

I have been growing veggies in my Menards buckets which are green for years and I never worry about anything leaching into the soil. I am still alive and healthy with no problems from it. lol

I will be growing in these buckets for many, many more years to come to. I wouldn't read into this to much you will be fine growing veggies in these 5 gallon buckets.

Fatal_Franklin · August 2, 2012

You could always grow in those heavy duty looking, industrial paper, waxed tree pots... those look like earth friendly, brown paper bags...! At a trade show for the nursery industry, I was looking for alternatives to plastic. I stopped at a booth that was hosted by one of the major producers of paper fiber pots, for trees, hanging baskets, memorial pot liners, etc. After speaking with the owner about the products used to make those warm and friendly looking, fiber pots, I thanked him for his time and honesty and then I moved on.

All of those heavy duty, waxed, paper fiber pots are industrial waste. The paper is waste paper and recylced papers that have been subjected to all manner of chemical treatments...unspecified, because it's waste from many sources. Then to form and stabilize the pots, he uses industrial waste from petroleum refining...and some other stuff I can't recall.

I'm not a fan of plastic at all. I would rather not use it period. But I think that to eliminate something that has become so basic in our lives, it takes a serious commitment to a TOTAL lifestyle shift! That's just not realistic for everyone.

I know the nursery containers that the greenhouse industry uses are certainly NOT "food grade". I would go ahead and use whatever buckets you want. For me it's not a choice of one plastic vs. another, it's more a question of plastic or NOT PLASTIC. I always find ways to use NOT plastic if I can.

Cole_Robbie · November 5, 2012

If anyone is worried about toxic chemicals leaching out of plastic, it is new items that should worry you the most. Softer plastics are much worse. Do you know that smell of a new shower curtain or inflatable kid's pool toy? If you have smelled it, you have inhaled a good amount of nasty stuff already. "New car smell" is not much better, especially when a new car sits in the hot sun with its windows closed. All of us now have the chemical that is in stainmaster carpet and gore-tex clothing showing up in our blood. It is not known for certain to cause health problems, but at the same time, child autism rates are now 1000 times what they used to be. That chemical might also play a small part in why we are all getting so fat, too.

I am planning on starting a 100-bucket or so greenhouse operation next spring to grow some early tomatoes for market. I'm trying to get my buckets from a health food distributor who throws them away. Re-using someone else's trash is always as good as it gets in an environmental sense, but honestly I just want free stuff. I am concerned that grow bags will dry out too quickly, and I don't like nursery pots, because I drill my drain holes a little bit up the sides. That makes a water reservoir, so the plant does not dry out so easily. I would love to see a grow bag concept that has a built-in water reservoir like that.

Redbaron · November 5, 2012

What's wrong with clay pots?

I dont grow in containers, but if I did, I would be looking for a clay pot solution first. Seems to me that people grew plants in containers like clay pots a whole lot of years before they started using plastic buckets. As long as you don't drop them........

kurt · November 5, 2012

The wife asked me why I do not use clay pots for the 150(average yearly)mater plants and some other .When I showed her the Home Depot prices at $35.00 per(for the 18inch) and $7.00 for the tray she understood.I went ahead and bought 5 gallon rigid black plastic instead.We got some citrus trees on the deck and she forked out $100.00 each for 30 gallon clay decoratives .They are expensive.The Italian clays have better quality(red clay all the way through)the Mexican ones(she got on sale at $50.00) have a black mix in the middle and break easier.I am also convinced the porosity of the clay does seem to grow more algae and fungas if kept to wet.For herbs and flowers great but mass plantings to expensive for me. http://www.arizonapottery.com/item.asp?iid=192

Redbaron · November 5, 2012

wow i see i am in a time zone. clay pots used to be cheap.

ContainerTed · November 5, 2012

Regarding 5 gallon buckets, I used to troll the superslab between town and the housing developments and pick up anything that blew off a contractor's truck. I also visited the developments and picked up any that were slightly damaged but still usable for plants. I didn't care if it had the right number or not. When I water those buckets each day, sometimes twice a day, any leaching would easily be washed out the bottoms.

I personally think most of this plastic scare is less scientific and more somebody's pet rant and power play. As a youngster, we had lots of things like polystyrene to chew on while we put together model airplanes and such with a glue that would send your brain into mach 9. Well, I'm 67 now and don't have any huge appendage-like growths hanging off me. So I figure that maybe I have an immune system that can handle a few bumps in the road.

I don't think there is enough evidence to really warrant a lot of concern about growing edible plants in these "questionable" plastic buckets. Most of the buckets I picked up had already been used for something else like paint or hydraulic fluid or whatever. I also scored a bunch from a bakery and some from a restaurant both of which were food grade. That means my "collection" is a mixed bag.

In conclusion, I don't think a used bucket, which has already had a chance to "leach" into the contents, can provide enough of anything that will travel thru the growing medium and find its way into the roots and then get past the plants defenses and be delivered into the fruit in a sufficient quantity to threaten me. I don't think the plants will transfer those compounds in the first place.

JMHO

bower · November 9, 2012

Most of the concern about plastic toxicity for humans is the estrogenic effects of most plastic leachates including colorants. The estrogenic effect is not a concern for uptake by plants grown in plastic pots. Either they are not taken up by the plant, as in the case of phthalates, or they are broken down and metabolized by the plant, so there is no residue to pass on to the person who eats the plant.
www.ecn.nl/docs/society/horizontal/hor14_phthalates.pdf
Phthalates do accumulate in aquatic environments and in algae - oxygen is a factor for their rate of breakdown - so there might be issues with leachate in plastic hydroponic grow systems that recirculate and concentrate it - you'd want to wash off any splash on the food, for sure.

The exception to the main concern is PVC plastic (#3), which is known to leach lead. Lead is taken up by plants, so that is a good reason to avoid PVC containers. I can't speculate whether the level of contamination in a PVC container soil would be high or low, but in any case, the main risk in crops grown in lead contaminated soils is from eating unpeeled root vegetables, and to a lesser extent, leafy greens. The lowest risk of lead contamination by uptake in the plant is in fruits: tomatoes, peppers, squash, cucumber.
http://www.gardening.cornell.edu/fac...cgandlead.html
PVC planters are not unheard of.
http://www.hooksandlattice.com/windowbox38.html

Cole_Robbie · November 10, 2012

The study that links PVC to leaching lead was referring to a reaction of chloramines that are used in water treatment with brass fittings and pvc as tap water flows through a house's plumbing. Without chloramine corroding brass, the PVC won't leach lead. There's probably more lead in our tap water, anyway, which is a much bigger problem.

May 30, 2012	#16
Rockporter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Texas Coastal Bend Posts: 3,205	I think growing in my Lowe's gray buckets is fine, there isn't any brining really going on in mine. I use rain water but even if I were to use the well water with salt in it I don't see it as causing much of a concern. There isn't any real brining happening when you just use water with a bit of salt in it because it isn't causing a fermentation process. My buckets are self watering so they hold a reservoir of water. when I empty my buckets at the end of a growing season I feel no difference in the water or see any difference than as if I just watered them. But of course, the human eye can't see some teeny tiny microbes or particles or what not, I still don't have any concern about using the buckets. I went with Lowe's buckets because of their color. __________________ In the spring at the end of the day you should smell like dirt ~Margaret Atwood~

November 5, 2012	#25
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	What's wrong with clay pots? I dont grow in containers, but if I did, I would be looking for a clay pot solution first. Seems to me that people grew plants in containers like clay pots a whole lot of years before they started using plastic buckets. As long as you don't drop them........ __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture

November 5, 2012	#26
kurt Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Homestead,Everglades City Fl. Posts: 2,489	The wife asked me why I do not use clay pots for the 150(average yearly)mater plants and some other .When I showed her the Home Depot prices at $35.00 per(for the 18inch) and $7.00 for the tray she understood.I went ahead and bought 5 gallon rigid black plastic instead.We got some citrus trees on the deck and she forked out $100.00 each for 30 gallon clay decoratives .They are expensive.The Italian clays have better quality(red clay all the way through)the Mexican ones(she got on sale at $50.00) have a black mix in the middle and break easier.I am also convinced the porosity of the clay does seem to grow more algae and fungas if kept to wet.For herbs and flowers great but mass plantings to expensive for me. http://www.arizonapottery.com/item.asp?iid=192 __________________ KURT Last edited by kurt; November 5, 2012 at 04:17 PM. Reason: Prices just for fun

November 5, 2012	#27
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	wow i see i am in a time zone. clay pots used to be cheap. __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture

November 5, 2012	#28
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	Regarding 5 gallon buckets, I used to troll the superslab between town and the housing developments and pick up anything that blew off a contractor's truck. I also visited the developments and picked up any that were slightly damaged but still usable for plants. I didn't care if it had the right number or not. When I water those buckets each day, sometimes twice a day, any leaching would easily be washed out the bottoms. I personally think most of this plastic scare is less scientific and more somebody's pet rant and power play. As a youngster, we had lots of things like polystyrene to chew on while we put together model airplanes and such with a glue that would send your brain into mach 9. Well, I'm 67 now and don't have any huge appendage-like growths hanging off me. So I figure that maybe I have an immune system that can handle a few bumps in the road. I don't think there is enough evidence to really warrant a lot of concern about growing edible plants in these "questionable" plastic buckets. Most of the buckets I picked up had already been used for something else like paint or hydraulic fluid or whatever. I also scored a bunch from a bakery and some from a restaurant both of which were food grade. That means my "collection" is a mixed bag. In conclusion, I don't think a used bucket, which has already had a chance to "leach" into the contents, can provide enough of anything that will travel thru the growing medium and find its way into the roots and then get past the plants defenses and be delivered into the fruit in a sufficient quantity to threaten me. I don't think the plants will transfer those compounds in the first place. JMHO __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

June 19, 2012	#17
whistler Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: PA Posts: 100	An update... I decided to use 7 gallon grow bags inside of the orange HD buckets. The bags should provide a barrier between the mix and the bucket, and the bucket will provide support for the grow bags. I know they can stand on their own, but since I have the buckets I might as well use them.

June 20, 2012	#19
whistler Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: PA Posts: 100	I bought a case of 400. Used 90 this season, plenty left for future expansion. Between the grey and orange buckets, I have 130 buckets in my driveway. Still have space to park 4 cars, though. Might be able to squeeze in another 40 buckets next year Or maybe I'll move and get a bigger driveway.

June 20, 2012	#20
casserole Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Dousman, WI Z5 Posts: 95	You can see I use The Homer buckets

June 21, 2012	#21
whistler Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: PA Posts: 100	For those who asked, I bought the 7 gallon plastic grow bags from Greenhouse Megastore, case of 400 came to about $153 including shipping - not quite 40 cents per bag. The smaller quantities of 10 were also reasonably priced.

June 27, 2012	#22
swinefka Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Gilberts, Illinois Posts: 27	I have been growing veggies in my Menards buckets which are green for years and I never worry about anything leaching into the soil. I am still alive and healthy with no problems from it. lol I will be growing in these buckets for many, many more years to come to. I wouldn't read into this to much you will be fine growing veggies in these 5 gallon buckets.

August 2, 2012	#23
Fatal_Franklin Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 24	You could always grow in those heavy duty looking, industrial paper, waxed tree pots... those look like earth friendly, brown paper bags...! At a trade show for the nursery industry, I was looking for alternatives to plastic. I stopped at a booth that was hosted by one of the major producers of paper fiber pots, for trees, hanging baskets, memorial pot liners, etc. After speaking with the owner about the products used to make those warm and friendly looking, fiber pots, I thanked him for his time and honesty and then I moved on. All of those heavy duty, waxed, paper fiber pots are industrial waste. The paper is waste paper and recylced papers that have been subjected to all manner of chemical treatments...unspecified, because it's waste from many sources. Then to form and stabilize the pots, he uses industrial waste from petroleum refining...and some other stuff I can't recall. I'm not a fan of plastic at all. I would rather not use it period. But I think that to eliminate something that has become so basic in our lives, it takes a serious commitment to a TOTAL lifestyle shift! That's just not realistic for everyone. I know the nursery containers that the greenhouse industry uses are certainly NOT "food grade". I would go ahead and use whatever buckets you want. For me it's not a choice of one plastic vs. another, it's more a question of plastic or NOT PLASTIC. I always find ways to use NOT plastic if I can.

November 5, 2012	#24
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	If anyone is worried about toxic chemicals leaching out of plastic, it is new items that should worry you the most. Softer plastics are much worse. Do you know that smell of a new shower curtain or inflatable kid's pool toy? If you have smelled it, you have inhaled a good amount of nasty stuff already. "New car smell" is not much better, especially when a new car sits in the hot sun with its windows closed. All of us now have the chemical that is in stainmaster carpet and gore-tex clothing showing up in our blood. It is not known for certain to cause health problems, but at the same time, child autism rates are now 1000 times what they used to be. That chemical might also play a small part in why we are all getting so fat, too. I am planning on starting a 100-bucket or so greenhouse operation next spring to grow some early tomatoes for market. I'm trying to get my buckets from a health food distributor who throws them away. Re-using someone else's trash is always as good as it gets in an environmental sense, but honestly I just want free stuff. I am concerned that grow bags will dry out too quickly, and I don't like nursery pots, because I drill my drain holes a little bit up the sides. That makes a water reservoir, so the plant does not dry out so easily. I would love to see a grow bag concept that has a built-in water reservoir like that.

November 9, 2012	#29
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,793	Most of the concern about plastic toxicity for humans is the estrogenic effects of most plastic leachates including colorants. The estrogenic effect is not a concern for uptake by plants grown in plastic pots. Either they are not taken up by the plant, as in the case of phthalates, or they are broken down and metabolized by the plant, so there is no residue to pass on to the person who eats the plant. www.ecn.nl/docs/society/horizontal/hor14_phthalates.pdf Phthalates do accumulate in aquatic environments and in algae - oxygen is a factor for their rate of breakdown - so there might be issues with leachate in plastic hydroponic grow systems that recirculate and concentrate it - you'd want to wash off any splash on the food, for sure. The exception to the main concern is PVC plastic (#3), which is known to leach lead. Lead is taken up by plants, so that is a good reason to avoid PVC containers. I can't speculate whether the level of contamination in a PVC container soil would be high or low, but in any case, the main risk in crops grown in lead contaminated soils is from eating unpeeled root vegetables, and to a lesser extent, leafy greens. The lowest risk of lead contamination by uptake in the plant is in fruits: tomatoes, peppers, squash, cucumber. http://www.gardening.cornell.edu/fac...cgandlead.html PVC planters are not unheard of. http://www.hooksandlattice.com/windowbox38.html

November 10, 2012	#30
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	The study that links PVC to leaching lead was referring to a reaction of chloramines that are used in water treatment with brass fittings and pvc as tap water flows through a house's plumbing. Without chloramine corroding brass, the PVC won't leach lead. There's probably more lead in our tap water, anyway, which is a much bigger problem.