Great Article on Seed Heat Treatment

[MendozaMark]

Hi, just wanted to pass along a great article on another method to save seeds other then fermentation.

http://sustainable-farming.rutgers.e...rial-diseases/

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by MendozaMark

Hi, just wanted to pass along a great article on another method to save seeds other then fermentation.

http://sustainable-farming.rutgers.e...rial-diseases/

" Bacterial pathogens have been detected on living and dead plant material in infected fields, and canker cells are reported to survive on tomato debris (including seed) for up to 5 years if the debris is undecomposed."

Thank you so much for this article and that sentence there actually answers my question from the previous thread.I was actually thinking that after 5 years the seed would be disease free and this proves it.I didn't think a disease could survive on a seed past 5 years.Thanks again

[MendozaMark]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

" Bacterial pathogens have been detected on living and dead plant material in infected fields, and canker cells are reported to survive on tomato debris (including seed) for up to 5 years if the debris is undecomposed."

Thank you so much for this article and that sentence there actually answers my question from the previous thread.I was actually thinking that after 5 years the seed would be disease free and this proves it.I didn't think a disease could survive on a seed past 5 years.Thanks again

You are very welcome. Cheers ! Mark

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

" Bacterial pathogens have been detected on living and dead plant material in infected fields, and canker cells are reported to survive on tomato debris (including seed) for up to 5 years if the debris is undecomposed."

Thank you so much for this article and that sentence there actually answers my question from the previous thread.I was actually thinking that after 5 years the seed would be disease free and this proves it.I didn't think a disease could survive on a seed past 5 years.Thanks again

I just read the article and can't see how you came to the conclusion you did. The article starts nicely and says bacterial pathogens have been detected on living and dead material in infected FIELDS and then says that CANKER CELLS(including seeds), which makes no sense to me b'c Canker cells would mean the canker bacteria themselves. And the canker bacteria would be in the endosperm of the bacteria.

Seems a bit mixed up to me and sending mixed messages and yes, I do understand bacteria well since I had an advanced degree in Microbiology and did most of my research with bacteria.

It's all about hot water treatment which we've discussed here many times and also only about certain BACTERIAL pathogens.

And yes, FUNGAL pathogens can survive on seeds for even more than 5 years and I added that it depends on HOW you store the seeds.

And we've had many discussions about the best way to rid seed coats of pathogens and several methods have been mentioned and discussed as to which ones are best.

We've also discussed which pathogens are in the endosperm of the seeds, not on the seed coats , and then, and only then can hot water treatment be used, and I think most of us agreed that hot water treatment for endosperm pathogens such as almost all serious bacterial ones as well as viruses and potato spindle Viroid can only be dealt with via hot water treatment which is one of those don't sothis at home bits, for homegrowers.

Summary? Know which tomato pathogens a person deals with wherever they are, and then select the best KNOWN method, that is KNOWN ( has data to prove) to lessen the burden on the seed coat and do that.

I know for me and many others that would be fermentation.

Carolyn

[MendozaMark]

Thanks Carolyn. I will search for the previous threads for more info and will use the fermentation method . Cheers !

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I just read the article and can't see how you came to the conclusion you did. The article starts nicely and says bacterial pathogens have been detected on living and dead material in infected FIELDS and then says that CANKER CELLS(including seeds), which makes no sense to me b'c Canker cells would mean the canker bacteria themselves. And the canker bacteria would be in the endosperm of the bacteria.

Seems a bit mixed up to me and sending mixed messages and yes, I do understand bacteria well since I had an advanced degree in Microbiology and did most of my research with bacteria.

It's all about hot water treatment which we've discussed here many times and also only about certain BACTERIAL pathogens.

And yes, FUNGAL pathogens can survive on seeds for even more than 5 years and I added that it depends on HOW you store the seeds.




And we've had many discussions about the best way to rid seed coats of pathogens and several methods have been mentioned and discussed as to which ones are best.

We've also discussed which pathogens are in the endosperm of the seeds, not on the seed coats , and then, and only then can hot water treatment be used, and I think most of us agreed that hot water treatment for endosperm pathogens such as almost all serious bacterial ones as well as viruses and potato spindle Viroid can only be dealt with via hot water treatment which is one of those don't sothis at home bits, for homegrowers.

Summary? Know which tomato pathogens a person deals with wherever they are, and then select the best KNOWN method, that is KNOWN ( has data to prove) to lessen the burden on the seed coat and do that.

I know for me and many others that would be fermentation.

Carolyn

You typed "And yes, FUNGAL pathogens can survive on seeds for even more than 5 years and I added that it depends on HOW you store the seed"

Concerning their nutrition, fungi are known to be saprophytes, that is, they feed on decayed matter. This is the reason why fungi are commonly found in soil or water containing organic waste. Fungi release distinct digestive enzymes that break down food outside their bodies in order to feed. The fungus will then absorb the dissolved food through its cell walls. They are referred to as heterotrophs in which they cannot manufacture their own food. In comparison, bacteria can either be heterotrophic or autotrophic. Autotrophic bacteria make their own food from light or chemical energy.


http://www.differencebetween.net/sci...-and-bacteria/


If fungi live on decayed matter, how can it survive over 5 years on a dried stored seed?

[Lorri D]

I've read that their spores can survive by going dormant or (hibernating) for decades. I am sure it varies variety to variety.

I hope Carolyn can talk more about this. I've been experimenting with making cultures of bacteria and fungus to view under my microscope. I hope to get to the point that I can tell apart the 10 or 15 most common ones myself, without having to use the ODA or OSU Plant Pathology Labs.

[Worth1]

Lest we not forget a mushroom is a fungus and the actual mushroom we see is only part of the organism.
It is the largest living thing on earth.
You want to see wood break down fast, introduce mushroom spores.

Want to see life on earth stop dead in it tracks, kill off all of the fungus and bacteria.

Worth

[Gerardo]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

If fungi live on decayed matter, how can it survive over 5 years on a dried stored seed?

Spores.

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by Gerardo

Spores.

Well I guess the best thing to do is what Carolyn said, Make sure you know where your seeds come from

The spore coat sounds like it could be used as some kind of weapon:

Many harmful chemicals kill bacteria via DNA-damaging mechanisms [10]. However, spores have evolved a number of mechanisms that confer chemical resistance. The spore coat is important in the resistance to many oxidizing chemicals such as chlorine dioxide, hypochlorite, ozone and peroxynitrite [2] [10] [11]. It functions by reacting with these chemical agents and detoxifying them before they pass through the spore coat [10]. In addition, the inner membrane’s extremely low permeability prevents both hydrophobic and hydrophilic molecules from entering into the core [11]. SASPs also protect the DNA by binding to it and shielding it from harmful chemical agents that enter the core

UV radiation damages the DNA of a cell and induces mutations. Saturation of an endospore’s DNA with SASPs protects the DNA from this harmful threat

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Gerardo

Spores.

There is no doubt in my mind that we have been visited by spores from outer space.

Worth

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

You typed "And yes, FUNGAL pathogens can survive on seeds for even more than 5 years and I added that it depends on HOW you store the seed"

Concerning their nutrition, fungi are known to be saprophytes, that is, they feed on decayed matter. This is the reason why fungi are commonly found in soil or water containing organic waste. Fungi release distinct digestive enzymes that break down food outside their bodies in order to feed. The fungus will then absorb the dissolved food through its cell walls. They are referred to as heterotrophs in which they cannot manufacture their own food. In comparison, bacteria can either be heterotrophic or autotrophic. Autotrophic bacteria make their own food from light or chemical energy.


http://www.differencebetween.net/sci...-and-bacteria/


If fungi live on decayed matter, how can it survive over 5 years on a dried stored seed?

Several have already given you the correct answer of spores.

I just did a very long post for you about this with many links that illustratge that it's not just fungi that make spores that are long lasting but also certina bacteria that are long lasting as well.

But I lost the whole post when I went to fetch another link.

I had talked about

botulism
plague where spores still capable of germinating have been found in Europe by archaeologists when they found communal plague pits from the 14th century and the plague spores from Yersinia Pestis found with the skeletons could still be germinated and that was how many centuries ago?

Clostridium difficile and the antibiotic relationship which is due to spores is one of the major problems in hospitals and nursing homes right now.


You just said,

(Well I guess the best thing to do is what Carolyn said, Make sure you know where your seeds come from)

No, that's not what I said. As a homegrower I said you need to know which tomato pathogens you have to deal with in terms of how to treat your home saved seed.

The pros and cons of several methods have been discussed here , some with documented data, some without and I said that yes, for me fermentation would be the best.

Carolyn, who really wanted to be an archaeologist with Microbiological expertise. She had the latter but ended up teaching medical students infectious disease and the immune response and when she moved back East from Denver in 1982 to take care of her aged parents she ended up teaching general Microbiology at a liberal arts college and that would include how to grow and ID, biochemistry, genetics, diseases caused by etc, of anything that was micro(small) which covers bacteria, fungi, yeasts, parasites,viruses worms, and more.

[seaeagle]

OK, so after a little prodding and poking and a little googling I finally got the answer to my original question which was; How long can pathogens remain alive on a tomato seed?

This is the conclusion I have come too, if I am wrong please let me know.

Fungal pathogens can remain alive in theory on a dried and stored tomato seed as long as there is a seed due to its ability to create a spore.

Bacterial pathogens generally won't last on a tomato seed longer than 5 years due to its inability to create a spore.

And since Bacterial disease such as Canker are the ones I am concerned about, that's good to know.The fungal ones mostly can be controlled with a good mulch.

Sometimes getting an answer is difficult but it is always worth it

Live and Learn

[Starlight]

For that article. I agree that it started out good and than lost something. I did notice that the temps were right at least for tomatoes for a heat treatment, but that is a lot of work and one wrong degree and your no better off than when you started.

I also noticed that article was submitted by a quest person and the credits at the bottom did not have any kind of professional degree letters attached to their names.

The best thing you can do is take care of your plants. Keep them healthy, at the first sign of anything unusual, come here and ask. You have pros and well-experienced home gardeners that will jump in and help in a heartbeat and follow their advice that way you know your doing the best you can for your seed. If the plant can be cured they will tell you. If they think your plant is a risk to your crops they will tell you pull and destroy it. The best advice is on these forums. You get quick results and the experience of lots of folks.

Even with perfect looking plants and fruit, you could still have an infected seed on your own crop if even one infected bug lands on your plants.

If you worry about getting seed from other folks, than give your seeds a hydrogen peroxide bath before planting them. Doesn't kill everything, especially any seed that might be harboring a virus but it helps with most fungal diseases.

If you get a chance google and read articles on " sleeping seeds." It's amazing how long some seeds can just lay there before the conditions may be right for them to germinate. Which is why I can understand Carolyn's love of wanting to have done wanted to be an archaeologist with Microbiological expertise.

While she would have loved that career, I am glad things worked out the way they did because she is able to share her expertise with the rest of us.

When it comes to sharing or buying seed, I believe most folks try and give their best and their perfect stuff. When it comes to seeds, I don't think there is such a thing as 100% safe.

Lori... How exciting for you!! Microscopes are expensive and so are the tools needed to grow the cultures, but it exciting to see them too. Best of luck with your cultures. Out of curiosity , does your microscope have a camera attached to it? Would be nice if at some point you could share your findings.