Leaf diagnosis needed

[aclum]

Hi,

I've been following Naysen's thread on his tomato foliage problems with great interest and thought of posting there, but didn't want to confuse things, so thought I'd just ask for help in a separate thread.

I haven't really been able to identify the problem myself as the various photos I've found of the same disease can look very differnt from each other. Anyway, here are a couple of photos of a typical leaf. I'm suspecting powdery mildew or a nutrient deficiency. So far I've just been cutting the leaves off with seemingly no harm done to the plant. The leaves are always towards the bottom of the plants. I have observed some thrips and what I'm guessing are red aphids, but they haven't been widespread.

Thanks!
Anne

[amideutch]

Check out Zinc deficiency at the following site. Ami

http://www.gardensalive.com/article.asp?ai=57

[Sun City Linda]

Certainly may be zinc but spider mites can come in RED.

[Heritage]

Hi Anne,

I've had similar in container plants grown in the greenhouse and, like you, I attributed it to either natural leaf senescence, powdery mildew or nutrient deficiency (I was thinking magnesium deficiency or imbalance with magnesium and other nutrients). I kept the bottom leaves pruned and it never progressed to a point where fruit production was influenced. Whatever it is, I don't think it is something to worry about. If Ivan doesn't chime in here, you should go ahead and repost in Naysen's thread.

Steve

[VC Scott]

The second picture looks a lot like early blight to me. Here is a description of early blight from the "Forewarned is forearmed: how to read your tomato leaves thread"

Early blight ( Alternaria solani )

* Symptoms: Dark brown, irregular spots appear on lowest, oldest leaves. As spots mature, they develop concentric rings, usually surrounded by a yellowish area. Will infect leaves, stems, and fruits.
* Description: This most widespread fungal disease of tomato leaves in the United States is called early blight because it usually infects determinate (bush-type) tomato plants early in the season. On indeterminate plants, symptoms develop as the season progresses. Early blight can also appear late in the season on either type of plant. Plants with early blight slowly lose their leaves, but unless the infection is severe, you can usually harvest mature tomatoes.

[Paradajz]

hi, Anne.

plenty of things could have caused this.
could you post a photo of an entire plant with such kind of symptoms, and if possible a photo of the top ( new growth ) section of that same plant? also, a clearer photo of a leaf which has some type of necrosis as with photo n2 here, taken from both sides of the leaf, would come really handy
and just a few more questions ( i promise not to make an interrogation as with Steve ):
* can you estimate how long it takes for a leaf to come to ''photos- like'' stage from initial symptoms, at least in terms of slow and fast?
* how many of you plants show these symptoms?
* have the plants been treated with any ferts or other chemicals?
* are there any other unusual appearance with those plants?

at this point i don't think you have anything that serious to worry about, but photos arent sufficient to come to an opinion here

br,
ivan

[aclum]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all of the responses!!

Ami, The problem I have really didn't resemble the zinc deficiency so much as a magnesium deficiency to me - particularly at the advanced stages. But you may be right.

Linda, I got a good look at the red bugs under a magnifying glass today and I'm about 100% positive that what I have are red aphids. I think I also have immature thrips (they're white), and flea beetles. Haven't actually seen any whiteflies lately.

Scott, Actually I had suspected early blight to some extent, as I do have some leaves with more necrosis, but I was particularly interested in the intervienal chlorosis (sp??) and a possible nutrient imbalance. I suspect I could have both.

Steve, I'm happy that you sort of agree with what I'd been suspecting and basically said not to worry about it too much at this stage.

Ivan, Thanks for responding (in spite of all the questions !)

I'd tossed the older leaves I'd trimmed earlier in the day but found another and have enclosed what I hope are better photos of an affected leaf.

To answer your other questions.....

It's really hard for me to put a time frame on things. I pretty much keep things trimmed and just find a few new ones here and there each day. If I don't trim at the early stage, I'm just guessing that they go from the first noticed stage to the beginning of necrosis (or darker areas) in a day or two.

I'm guessing that about 10 out of 58 plants are affected with this particular malady. Although, I've noticed more leaves here and there on other plants with leaves looking more like early blight or flea beetle damage, or powdery mildew (a light tan spot in the leaf - but this hasn't shown up for a while).

When I first noticed what I thought might be powdery mildew (small beige areas in the leaves), I sprayed them with some neem that didn't help and then a 10% milk spray that seemed to get rid of the problem. I'll also spritz any colonies of aphids, thrips, etc. I see with neem (they have generally been confined to small infestations here and there - not all over the garden). But I really haven't used much to speak of.

I watered the transplants in solo cups with a half recommended concentration of miracle grow about a week before setting the plants out in the garden. The beds have been covered with weed block and mulch for several years without any additions to the soil. So basically no added fertilizers.

Re: any other diseases, I've included a few photos of other damaged leaves including a problem going on with the upper leaves on my Black Krim that I just noticed today!!! This is the first problem I've noticed higher up on the plant. All of the other leaf problems have been from lower on the plant. This problem sort of alarms me more than my original reason for posting!

Oh, the problem in the original photos has shown up more often in some of my potato leafed plants and I've enclosed photos of 3 Lucky Cross versions that have been affected. I've got a lucky cross, a lucky cross grafted onto a grandeur, and a lucky cross grafted onto a katana. So far I haven't noticed any difference in how they've been affected. Oh, I think the little white spots you might see on some of the plants in the photo are just the sun shining through the holes in the aluminet I'm using for shade cloth in that part of the garden.

I was overwatering on a timer for a while and getting a lot of splitting (and catfacing), and it's been getting hot here. I have had some BER but not a whole lot and it seems to be on several different varieties but just one or two here and there. I cut back on the watering quite a bit and I think that's stressed out some of the plants a bit.

I think that's about all for now.....although I'm sure I must have forgotten something! Hope I haven't been too incoherent

Oh, if you want to check out the general health of the tomatoes - check out my thread on "Anne's Garden" in the photo section. I added some new photos not too long ago.

Thanks for any help!!!
Anne

[Paradajz]

Anne,

excellent photos and even better description

ok, this is why i hate magnesium deficiency with a tomato plant... 'cause it's tricky. goes like this:
* Mg deficiency is absolutely what you have there: low leaf branches, chlorosis between veins, developing from a leaf top to bottom, necrosis following and it is not sunk ( googled the translation for this, i mean that the necrotic part is flat and not concave ), good looking plants, no unusual patterns, no signs of diseases except for those Black Krims top growth which i do not like at all.

the tricky part is:
* Mg deficiency can easily hide symptoms of a secondary disease, or itself be a secondary effect of some irregularities ( excess ) or even diseases. as a matter of facts, i believe that this deficiency is probably a direct cause of the largest chemistry abuse in tomato growing world- most people almost immediately spray fungicides and all kinds of other stuff on symptoms like this.
this is actually why i still haven't given Steve a final opinion about photos of his plants ( which predominantly suggest Mg deficiency but with much more chances of something else as a secondary ) on the other thread
* the speed of development which you named isn't quite adequate for such a diagnosis, it should be a bit slower than 1-2 days. but again, there is no general speed for symptoms development here: time for Mg deficiency symptoms development actually depends directly on the speed of plant growth, because the plant sends Mg from low leaf branches higher, therefore the faster it grows the faster the symptoms will develop. also, high temps which those leafs cannot endure with it's significantly lowered chlorophyll most probably made it develop a bit faster.

Some tips:
1) check the PH of soil if possible. you need to see where this comes from before you react, if any reaction needed at all.
2) unfortunately i am not familiar with the products from your market which you mentioned ( miracle grow ), but i take it that the soil cannot be overdosed with potassium or calcium, which could also cause this?
3) don't prune those leaf branches until all the leafs are over 50% necrotic- let the plant extract and send as much Mg from those to the higher levels, it will most probably allow you to close the season without additional Mg ferts. and please note, this is not a general advice and therefore cannot be generally taken, i only recommend it because there is adequately low risk of a secondary issue with your plants. otherwise, such branches need to be pruned, as commonly known.
4) after you checked the PH make your decision depending on the result- extremely low or high values would ask for PH correction and not Mg fert. if PH is ok wait some more- if this doesn't make a rapid progress you should be able to close the season without additional fertilizing. please also note- i would definitely recommend some mild Mg fert here, if your plants weren't that close to the first yields. in such a moment incorrectly ( incorrect doses or wrong type of fert ) administered additional Mg fertilizer could ''mess up'' with potassium, which at such a moment could produce significant troubles with fruits.

br,
ivan

[rnewste]

I am also seeing this on a few of my plants:



Ivan, would a product like this be effective in treating the issue:



thanks,

Raybo

[aclum]

Hi Ivan,

Thanks for the great, informative, and encouraging response!! I'll see if I can get a reading on the pH and get back to you. In the meantime, I'll go a bit easier on the pruning of the affected leaves and, I guess, just keep an eye on whatever's going on with the black krim.

The products I mentioned were Neem Oil Spray and Miracle-Gro Tomato Plant Food. I misspelled the Miracle-Gro in the last post. It's a blue, water soluble powder you mix with water at 1 tablespoon per gallon of water. I used about 1 teaspoon per half gallon of water to water my seedling a week before transplanting. The "solo cups" I referred to are 16 or 20 oz plastic beverage cups a lot of us use to start our seedling. (You probably know this already <g>). The ingredients in Miracle-Gro tomato food are urea, magnesium sulfate, potassium phosphate, ammonium sulfate, and ferric sodium EDTA (?). It's 18-18-21

Your comments on Magnesium deficiency in general were quite interesting. I'll have to do more reading up on the matter. Also interesting on the effects of heat - esp. as it's predicted that we'll be having a record high of 112 degrees F this weekend!!! I think I'm going to have to get some more shade on my plants!

Anyway, thanks again so very much for your help. Will get back to you on the pH.

Anne

[amideutch]

Anne get some Black strap molasses, add 1 Tbsp to a pint of hot water to dissolve and add this 1 gal water and apply as a foliar. Then make up another batch or two and apply as a soil drench. Ami

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by rnewste

I am also seeing this on a few of my plants:



Ivan, would a product like this be effective in treating the issue:



thanks,

Raybo

no, Raybo, it would do exactly the oposite

calcium is antagonist to magnesium, and your plants show magnesium deficiency ( excellent photo to see the start of chloris from leaf top to bottom, it's the pattern ), so feeding your plants with calcium fert would make it quite worse.

my advice is to follow the same procedure as Anne, especially if your plants are close to yields too, but be vigilant for diseases since your photo shows some unclear signs of something lower there

br,
ivan

[rnewste]

Thanks Ivan,

So it looks like I should have added Epsom Salts when planting.

Raybo

[Paradajz]

no need to thank anyone here- it's a beautiful place of plant lovers ( which should mean good people ), but you are welcome, Raybo.

not sure that you needed additional magnesium in soil preparing phase, magnesium deficiency in large percentage of cases comes out of a disturbed soil PH or traditionally high amount of potassium which tomato growers simply love having in their soil

quite short with time, but i'll see to post some general tips for ferts and tomato plants, might help.
anyway, if this progresses with your plants ( above the first fruit- branch ) you'll most probably need to make a couple of foliar treatments with Mg, but still do a soil PH test if possible.
have there been any signs of blossom end rot with your plants?

br,
ivan

EDIT:

p.s.
do by any chance fruits on those plants show a bit smaller size or slow growth? if yes, you'll again need a couple of foliar magnesium treatments ( and fast ), but i hope it shouldn't be the case while the leaf symptoms keep low.

[aclum]

Hi Ivan,

Just a quick note to let you know that I tested my soil pH and came up with around 7.2. This is more or less what I expected as my original fill soil was composted green yardwaste from our county that I had tested and, as I recall tested to about that or a bit higher. That was about 5 years ago and I really haven't added any significant amendments. The soil tested in the OK range for everything, except Boron was on the high side. But the excess should have leached out by now. One thing I've noticed is that the soil can become very silt-like and hydrophobic in places if it really dries out. The base soil (under the compost layer) is basically a clay-like type.

The plants have been the most productive I've ever had. Since I discovered that squirrels were eating the fruit, I picked all the ripe, near ripe, and blushing tomatoes and got 40 lbs from 58 plants in the last 2 days. (and have previously harvested about 10-15 lbs). Oh, I have had some blossom end rot, but nothing I would call excessive. When I counted my tomatoes a week ago, I had 522 green tomatoes and maybe 6-10 with BER. I've had it in the past and it usually stops as the season progresses.

Ami,

Thanks for the recommendation on the blackstrap molasses. I'm vaguely familiar with it's use. I think I'll hold off on doing anything to the tomatoes for the time being, but might try a small amount on some beans in another bed that are getting some yellowing of the lower leaves.

Anne