Starting indoors extra early

[OmahaJB]

Planning on starting a few things extra early to get a head start for next growing season. What I mean is I'm going to try starting seeds for tomatoes and peppers, transplant them into containers while still indoors, then put them outside once the temps are fairly warm, possibly early June. They will be left in the containers. I'm sure I'm not the first one to try this, and am wondering how effective it's been for others who have done so.

The reason I want to try this method is because I've been a dismal failure at gardening outdoors. I'm sure it's mostly a problem with the soil, and the fact I can't get to the garden very often and need to rely on my elderly mother to water the plants consistently. She does a good job and enjoys it, but the soil problem has been impossible to overcome so far. It's actually her garden, but with the exception of the past two years, I've supplied her with most of the seedlings and have tried keeping up with amending the soil with good compost and weeding, etc.

We haven't had total failure, but it's been hit or miss, mostly miss. Low production has been a problem even when the plants grew halfway decently. However, most of the plants did not grow very well. I've put some in growbags before and they had decent production, so I figured if I start the seeds in December or early January, transplant them indoors, then get them acclimated to being outside in early June, maybe we can get better production (and earlier), and not have to worry as much about weather conditions (too much rain, diseases, etc.).

I just feel bad the different things I've tried planting over in her garden have produced so little since I started helping her back in 2008. I will say though hybrids did well for a couple of years. Pink Girl was decent tasting and I may try that one along with any heirlooms I grow. Black Cherry and KBX will be used. I've tried other things like cucumbers, squash, melons, peppers, eggplant, and even radishes, and none have done well. Things like melons and squash I may as well forget about. Their vines just laugh at me and then shrivel up.

The past two years my sister has helped her more than I have, so I know it's not just me. Most of the seedlings were purchased by them.

Anyway, I thought this might be a way to get some decent production so my mother can have a nice garden in 2013. But of course, if it ends up being as hot as this past summer it probably wont matter what I do.

[Mark0820]

I don't grow in containers, so I don't have any advice on your early planting plan.

However, if you haven't completely given up on your mom's garden, you might want to check Craigslist for free horse manure in the Toledo area. Most horse stables will give it away for free (some will even load your truck for you) because they don't have any use for it. Just make sure it is aged for a good period of time.

Mix several truck loads in your mom's garden and you will be amazed at the results you can achieve. You should be able to grow a decent crop this year, but you will really see the benefits in 2014. I turned my clay garden soil into a garden that drained so well it was never too wet to plant in it.

[kilroyscarnival]

JB, can you manage to either buy or make some self-watering containers? I would need help constructing Ray's EarthTainer, as I'm just not that handy or experienced, but I think I could knock out some of the Global Buckets (globalbuckets.org) myself with the purchase of a hole cutter for my drill. They might solve your biggest problem, the irregular watering.

Robust plants with small yield might be because it was too hot for your toms etc to flower and fruit in the heat wave, but have you examined your fertilizer habits? If you are using something with too much nitrogen, or just too much in general, you might be asking for heavy foliage growth and then not get much fruit. (Or so I'm learning.)

If two or three or four of you are all tending the garden, you might have a classic case of overfeeding, either because the garden looks like it needs something or everyone feels like it's "their turn." Maybe that's not it at all, but worth asking your mom and sister. A printed checklist with dates and amounts, that everyone keeps up with, might be a wise idea. If everyone feels like they have to do "something", maybe add "inspect for leaf damage" or "add mulch", both of which you probably can't overdo.

I've been checking out the threads here in General Discussion on Irrigation and No Till Gardening under the SoilBuilding 101 folder. I am chalking up a lot of "I'd like to try that next times." Maybe you will too. Best of luck! It's nice to want to make your mom's garden nice.

[OmahaJB]

Thanks for the replies/advice.

Regarding the horse manure, I'd like to add that, but my mother wouldn't allow it. She almost didn't let me use compost because she was afraid it'd smell, and then the neighbors could call the authorities and complain. Evidently it's illegal to have any type of compost or manure that smells enough to bother the neighbors here.

Have to admit I'm not good with making things, putting things together, etc. When I lived in Omaha I probably cussed out a certain country for improper manufacturing of a futon I had to put together after I bought it. Holes drilled in the wrong spot, etc. I'd probably have trouble putting together an earthtrainer and would only have myself to cuss out - and that might hurt my feelings.

I should have been clear about the plants I grew out for my mother. The past two years my sister planted seedlings my mother bought, and then my mother took care of them. 2008-2010 I took care of virtually everything, from starting seeds through harvest. The only thing my mother did was water the plants. I was the only person adding nutrients during those three years, and the past two years I doubt they added fertilizer. They tilled a new garden spot and just planted there. First year they had some success but this past year the heat affected the plants too much.

The only plants I recall having good size to them in 2008-2010 were a couple of the hybrids. They had good production. The first I grew was I think Big Beef that did very well, although had alot of problems with BER. In 2010 I grew Pink Girl and really liked it. It wasn't quite as big as Big Beef (plant size) or as productive, but it was decent. Most of my heirloom plants never got more than 3-4' tall and had very limited production. Some never even got that tall.

I probably will buy a drip irrigation system this year. Part of the problem with BER is irregular watering or possibly too much watering (the past two years).

One of the reasons I'm thinking of starting seeds extra early is because I know from experience the plants I've grown indoors have taken longer to mature (plant size) and produce than they do outdoors. So if I start in December or early January they might be just ready to start producing in late May-early June, or a little later. I like being able to control the environment indoors for the plants, but obviously can get better production and larger plants outdoors.

[Redbaron]

aged horse manure incorporated in a garden does not stink. but if you can't convince your mother of that, then just use a heavy grass clipping mulch. over a newspaper barrier. This will help 3 ways. One way is to control weeds, another to help retain moisture and balance the highs and lows, as a moiture barrier, last is as food for worms and the worms will improve your soil with their manure.

Far as starting extra early. Yes it does help but it is affected by the laws of diminishing returns. You will actually find better returns by getting the plants in the ground earlier and having a strategy to deal with late frosts by covering the seedlings. But there is a risk. This year my extra early plantings of peppers did great, but my extra early plantings of tomatoes all died but 2 and I had to replant.

[roselady]

I'm sitting here reading this and realized, JB, that I may also have something to contribute to help with the BER. My husband and I had no end of trouble with it until the last two years. I read somewhere that one of the biggest reasons for it is lack of calcium. Not being one to want to spend a lot of money on supplements (if I did that, I could just buy tomatoes!), I started rinsing and saving egg shells. All winter, I keep a tray with a chamois in the bottom, and we crunch the shells, and toss them on the tray till they are dry. I save them in zipper bags, and use them as top dressing on the soil starting when the plants flower. I haven't had one case of BER since 2010.

3 plants got one of the wilts on us this past season, but the soil has been isolated and will be disposed of some place no one grows things. I've also started a worm bin for the castings next spring. I have high hopes - it's been going three weeks today, and there's no odor at all, and I already almost have a tray of castings!

[tam91]

I think it's generally discussed on the forum that the problem isn't really a lack of calcium, but a lack of the ability of the plants to use the calcium, due to environmental conditions or whatever. Some years I've had BER, some years not. From what I've read, there's really nothing you can do about it - some varieties (especially pastes) are more susceptible than others, and the plants generally outgrow it.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by roselady

I'm sitting here reading this and realized, JB, that I may also have something to contribute to help with the BER. My husband and I had no end of trouble with it until the last two years. I read somewhere that one of the biggest reasons for it is lack of calcium. Not being one to want to spend a lot of money on supplements (if I did that, I could just buy tomatoes!), I started rinsing and saving egg shells. All winter, I keep a tray with a chamois in the bottom, and we crunch the shells, and toss them on the tray till they are dry. I save them in zipper bags, and use them as top dressing on the soil starting when the plants flower. I haven't had one case of BER since 2010.

3 plants got one of the wilts on us this past season, but the soil has been isolated and will be disposed of some place no one grows things. I've also started a worm bin for the castings next spring. I have high hopes - it's been going three weeks today, and there's no odor at all, and I already almost have a tray of castings!

What she said!

[roselady]

LOL! Once I have time to read all the posts on this forum, I will be up on that. All I can say at this point is that it's worked for me for two seasons. It also gives me something to do with the shells!

To anyone who hasn't had dinner yet...Enjoy! To all who have....have a wonderful nap!

[bower]

OmahaJB,
I tried some different early start/container approaches last year, similar to what you propose to do.

I had one Peacevine which I grew from a cutting in the fall, which overwintered/grew in a 3 gallon pot indoors. It did not begin to set fruit until March but provided some early spring cherries while still indoors. In June I transplanted it into an unfinished compost pile, where I sprawled it out "hippy style" and buried bits of the branches to let it grow as a 'multi-rooted' plant. It produced a nice crop in September through October.

I started my new tomatoes in two groups, February 2 and February 22, under lights in a cold window ("the cold treatment"). They were moved to the cold greenhouse in April, Feb 2 plants sooner, and all transplanted to their large containers the same day. The Feb2 plants were larger in the beginning, but the Feb22 plants caught up quickly, and both groups began to set buds at the same time. Overall, the Feb2 plants did not seem to benefit from the earlier start nor from the extra cold treatment, which was a bit hard on em and maybe made them a bit more needy and susceptible to disease.

Also in April, I transplanted two extra Stupice into 3 gallon pots. One stayed in the greenhouse, and the other came indoors. Growth rates were similar but the indoor plant dropped blossoms and did not set much fruit (indoor climate = dry air, less light, warmer). Tolerance of indoor conditions depends on the variety too. Peacevine did okay, but my cuttings of Black Cherry didn't thrive, and Stupice didn't like it either. I moved the indoor Stupice outside in June, where it set more fruit, but it also got neglected and wilted completely a few times, as the small containers dry out pretty quick.

I still like the idea of having a couple of mature plants in the spring, for a few early fruit indoors if I can get it, and to move into bigger containers out in the greenhouse for the earliest real crop.

Couple of thoughts on your plan:
Think about your DTM, if you start in December you should have fully grown plants with fruit in four months or so, if they are willing and able, and still two months to go before setting out. There will be a lot of demand for nutrients and water from a small root volume. Some varieties won't set fruit or set much under those conditions, and feeding with liquid ferts on a regular basis is necessary for the full grown plant in a pot. My mother grew plants indoors all year round in 4 gallon pots, feeding about 1/2 litre of diluted fish emulsion every two weeks when they started to fruit, and had a nice crop - but the plants also got huge and had to be roped down from the ceilings and cut back.
If you're planning to move them outdoors, you don't want a lot of tender or spindly growth caused by low light and/or by repeated pruning. The "cold treatment" for seedlings definitely produced nice sturdy seedlings, I'd recommend it, and also as much light as you can give your plants.
The size of the plant can be constrained a bit by using a small container. 3 Gal bucket starting with some bone meal, was about right for a manageable tomato plant in my house (standard 8 ft ceiling). It is also a feasible size to transplant into something larger - or into the garden, if that's the plan. One thing for sure, a tomato plant that's been in a small pot for 4-6 months will be delighted to be given fresh volume of soil to root into, even if it's just a larger container.

If I was planning to grow Black Cherry in a container for an early start, I would not give it more than 4 months before transplant time. The plant is simply too huge, and since it has long internodes, needs a lot of space to bear lots of fruit, so difficult for most indoor spaces.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by bower

I started my new tomatoes in two groups, February 2 and February 22, under lights in a cold window ("the cold treatment"). They were moved to the cold greenhouse in April, Feb 2 plants sooner, and all transplanted to their large containers the same day. The Feb2 plants were larger in the beginning, but the Feb22 plants caught up quickly, and both groups began to set buds at the same time. Overall, the Feb2 plants did not seem to benefit from the earlier start nor from the extra cold treatment, which was a bit hard on em and maybe made them a bit more needy and susceptible to disease.

That is much better stated than what I tried to explain by saying "diminishing returns", and absolutely correct.

I have tried it many times,ways and this tendency for the later started seedlings to quickly catch up and sometimes even exceed my earlier starts is consistant. Starting earlier helps...to a point....once you pass that point the benefits become minimal at best.

[Mark0820]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

aged horse manure incorporated in a garden does not stink. but if you can't convince your mother of that, then...

Agreed. Aged horse manure (1 year) has the look and consistency of sphagnum peat. It has no odor even when it is just sitting in a pile. If a person didn't know where it came from, they would never even know it is horse manure.

[Cole_Robbie]

Yep. Aged manure of any animal doesn't smell. Lately I've been working on an old cattle barn, re-setting a corner post. The ground under the barn canopy is nearly 100% pure cow pie, but because of the aging it just looks like good dark soil and does not smell at all.

[OmahaJB]

Thanks for the advice everyone. The compost I used in 2009 & 2010 was cow manure, I'm pretty sure, and it didn't smell. I really expected the plants to take off but they just didn't for some reason. I'm thinking I wont add hydrated lime to the ground soil if I transplant in the ground next spring. Not sure if that would do any harm, but it seemed to help my indoor container plants when I lived in Omaha. My memory's bad on this but I believe it was recommended somewhere to help with BER.

As you can see I'm truly the man without a green thumb.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by OmahaJB

Thanks for the advice everyone. The compost I used in 2009 & 2010 was cow manure, I'm pretty sure, and it didn't smell. I really expected the plants to take off but they just didn't for some reason. I'm thinking I wont add hydrated lime to the ground soil if I transplant in the ground next spring. Not sure if that would do any harm, but it seemed to help my indoor container plants when I lived in Omaha. My memory's bad on this but I believe it was recommended somewhere to help with BER.

As you can see I'm truly the man without a green thumb.

One hint for a green thumb. Worms are excelent gardeners. They know exactly what to do. So take care of your worms and they will take care of you.

It isn't quite that simple, but almost.

And if that doesn't work, you can always head to ace hardware and spray your thumb with green paint!