Tomatoville® Gardening Forums


Notices

Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1+ years) growout projects.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 20, 2016   #16
dokutaaguriin
Tomatovillian™
 
dokutaaguriin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Alberta, Canada Z3a
Posts: 905
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bower View Post
One of my objectives this year was to collect some data on growth habit for crosses between indeterminate and determinate or semi-determinate plants. And I did. And now I know why there is so little written about it - the data is a PIA to collect, pretty much impossible to photograph unless you are willing to yank the plants and lay them out on a sheet. So instead I have put together a few graphics to show what I found.

Black Nipper is a sp/sp "semi-determinate" black cherry selected last year from the F2 of the cross Napoli a Fiaschetto X Black Cherry. I was baffled by the F2 because they were very late to express the sp/sp terminal bud pattern and until they did, appeared to be indeterminate with numerous repeats of three leaves between flower clusters. I grew three plants of the F3 and carefully counted the leaves/nodes and cluster patterns, shown below. As you can see, each plant has a unique semi-determinate pattern on the main stem. The number shown below the first leaf in the graphic refers to the number of leaves/internodes before the first cluster, which according to what I have read is under separate genetic control. It also appears that the number of leaves between clusters or leaf-cluster pattern is a complex trait which is certainly still segregating at the F3 stage.
Hi Bower,
I am not sure if you realize this or not but for people of Japanese descent would find the use of Ni***** which comes from N** which in turn came from Nippon (Japan in Japanese) as racial slur.
Best of luck with your breeding efforts,
Jeff
dokutaaguriin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #17
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default BEIST F2 - Black Early X Indian Stripe

Considering the amount of hard and unevenly ripened fruit I had to look at this summer, it was a real relief to have at least one slicer with no hardness, pale spots, or any adverse effects on texture at all.
I started six seedlings of the Beist F2, and one of them flowered early which is as I expected from a 1/4 ratio. Besides the ultra smooth texture and the earliness of this black beef in spite of the cold, this F2 and its siblings had a very dense fruiting pattern as I also noticed in the F1. The plant did lose a main stem to mold - as did many others - but it recovered well and went on to fruit well into the late season.
In spite of these advantages which make it worth growing further, the early Beist didn't have the intensity of taste which I hoped for, although its late fruit were sweet it was overall pretty mild. So we have plans to grow out more of the F2's looking for a lineup of Beistly candidates to trial against one another in the future.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BeistB1-2clusters.JPG (189.4 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg BeistB1-firstripe.JPG (122.0 KB, 85 views)
File Type: jpg Beist-B1-sliced.JPG (130.6 KB, 85 views)
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #18
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dokutaaguriin View Post
Hi Bower,
I am not sure if you realize this or not but for people of Japanese descent would find the use of Ni***** which comes from N** which in turn came from Nippon (Japan in Japanese) as racial slur.
Best of luck with your breeding efforts,
Jeff
Astonished (and horrified) to hear this notion Jeff. There are many definitions of "nipper" and I think you'll find most of them listed here:
https://www.wordnik.com/words/nipper
and no reference whatsoever to any use of the word "NIPPER" as a racial slur, nor does this perfectly decent word originate in the manner you suggested from derogations of "Nippon". You are mistaken.
In the case of the name "Black Nipper" I'm using it in the nautical sense, that is a short rope, and refers to the grippy foliage which I mentioned above.

I hope that sets your mind at ease.
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #19
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default Black Slicer data

You can see from the picture below that there was some uneven ripening damage on Indian Stripe as well. And in the circumstances, it was lacking its outstanding taste as well. So although I have to judge the taste of all the fruit, I know that some favourites were not at their best either.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BlackSlicersdata-2015.jpg (48.1 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg blackslicer-tasters.JPG (213.5 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg blackslicers-sliced.JPG (190.2 KB, 80 views)
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #20
BigVanVader
Tomatovillian™
 
BigVanVader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posts: 3,099
Default

Did you cross randomly or are you trying to achieve a specific collection of traits?
BigVanVader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #21
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigVanVader View Post
Did you cross randomly or are you trying to achieve a specific collection of traits?
BVV I just have the general goal of developing some varieties that are well adapted to our growing conditions. Season is short and cool and unpredictable. Little sunshine compared to other places where tomatoes are grown, and since growing under cover is the only sure way to get a crop of tomatoes, there are additional limits on light as well as confined growing space. My interest in semideterminate growth habit and fruit/shoot ratios is because of what happens to the typical tomato deprived of light.... long leggy and many yards of vine per clumps of fruit.

It is not worth the effort to grow anything rated more than 80 DTM or 'midseason' here, and those would be late and possibly too late for us depending on the specific variety and the season. We need tomatoes that will set happily at temperatures between 60 and 70 F. You may have noticed that there are lots of small red varieties for early season... not so many blacks or tangerines or hearts or... although there certainly are some great OP's, I am always looking for the best to try.
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #22
BigVanVader
Tomatovillian™
 
BigVanVader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posts: 3,099
Default

Very cool, I wish you luck and nice looking tomatoes so far.
BigVanVader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #23
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default Champs of earliness: Stupice X Black Cherry F2

I can't say enough good about Stupice as a parent. All the great traits, earliness, vigour, trouble-free foliage, reliable set, were passed on and the weak trait - taste only so-so for me - didn't bite at all. Out of six F2 plants there was only one that didn't have better than average fruit - a small black cherry on the sour side. My best surprise was a multilocule little flat pink that I'm calling Kitten Paws Pink. I had forgotten that pink was in the cards at all, and this one was so tasty and sweet... I love it. Only one defect, the fruit are so thin skinned, the ripe ones burst when the pressure went up on a thundery day.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg MDivandStubdata-2015.jpg (54.9 KB, 77 views)
File Type: jpg KittenPawsPink.JPG (118.1 KB, 77 views)
File Type: jpg StubBLG-cluster.JPG (167.1 KB, 77 views)
File Type: jpg Stubche-PL-redcherry106.JPG (164.3 KB, 78 views)
File Type: jpg Stubche-BlackestCherry.JPG (173.6 KB, 77 views)
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #24
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default More early champs: Kimberley X Zolotye Kupola F2

The segregation for this cross was not as I expected. The precocious flowering trait from Kimberley is recessive, so I expected 1/4 to be precocious. I only grew four plants of it, and three of four were early flowering similar to Kimberley. The fourth was a suspected Goblet mutant which indeed was dwarfed and slow growing, flowering later. Two caveats for this observation: I didn't have Kimberley this year for a side by side for comparison, and I guess with a small number of plants it could be chance. I will have to grow more to see if there's really anything unusual happening with the cross.

The three normal plants also retained a trait I saw in the F1 - short internodes and a nice concentrated set of fruit. Also, like the F1, red fruit ripened yellow first, then orange and finally red. The ripening process is a little slow, and they were at their best when fully ripe. Meanwhile the colours of the fruit ripening on the vine reminded me of Lifesavers - the candy, not the flotation device. It was a lovely sight in our cold and glum spring.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg KimKupolacrossesdata-2015.jpg (82.4 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg KiKu-onvine-colours.JPG (149.6 KB, 73 views)
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #25
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default Hope's Early

Although the main goal of this cross was to find an earlier Zolotye Kupola type yellow heart to grow for my Mom, I decided to grow forward this earliest PL red heart. All of the F2's were on the small side, thin skinned and juicy and on the soft side. The flavour is nice, not a big wow but certainly welcome at that time of season - a week earlier than Moravsky Div. And it's a pretty fruit.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg KiKuPL-heartcluster.JPG (152.8 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg hopesearly-ripe-heart.JPG (143.7 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg hopesearly-sliced.JPG (82.4 KB, 71 views)
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #26
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default Best taster: Yellow Warbler: Medovaya Kaplya X Kim Kupola F1

I grew two plants of this cross between Medovaya Kaplya and the KimberlyXZolotye Kupola F1 and got one PL, one RL, one red grape shape and one yellow long shape. Both were tasty with the perfect texture, but the yellow was great. I called it the Yellow Warbler after the small birds that nest around my mother's garden, because of the odd blend of green, yellow and very dark yellow that spreads from the stem end very slowly engulfing the fruit. These were quite good at the early stage, even with a bit of green on them, and it wasn't until later in the season some high on the vine got away from me and fully ripened that dark colour. I expected them to be 'overripe' but instead they were fantastically tangy and rich.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Mekiku-F2-ripesibs.JPG (83.6 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg Mekiku-Warbler-cluster.JPG (208.3 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg Mekiku-Warbler-Yellow.JPG (117.8 KB, 70 views)
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #27
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default Some disappointments... of course

My cross of Rozoviy Flamingo Heart and Al Kuffah produced some lovely looking set of green fruit, and even some nice looking ripe ones although the earliest had some uneven ripening. I grew a dozen plants and was really impressed with the foliage health of all of them at the seedling stage, but the promise of disease resistance didn't pan out under our grim 2015 realities. They were very pest resistant, so time will tell if the pests make me reconsider this line or possibly using it in a cross with something earlier and better tasting.
I could always pretend these were tasty, but it isn't true. Maybe in a warmer year or a warmer climate.. or maybe they're just what I think, very ordinary red tomatoes and not very early. No plans to grow again but I will share the eye candy.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RozyKuffahF2data2015.jpg (43.3 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg RKB2-ripe-sliced.JPG (154.1 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg RK-DWF1-3lobed-heart.JPG (165.9 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg RK-DWF1-pinkheart-sliced.JPG (126.3 KB, 68 views)
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #28
KarenO
Tomatovillian™
 
KarenO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 5,918
Default

I am so impressed with what you are doing! Wonderful photography too
Karen
KarenO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #29
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default Not much hope for Eva Purple Ball

These also were a sad story. Darrell's KimberleyXEPB F2 produced a PL with early full set and ripened a gorgeous glowing pink. So exciting, and then a big letdown, to find they were completely tasteless and not a nice texture at all. Dutch's MEPBBBX barely produced a handful of fruit. And my F1 of EPB X PI 120256, as expected, a scanty handful of late and small fruit. The hard truth, it seems that Eva Purple Ball is not a good parent for the cold and gloomy north atlantic. Although those pink ones were bright enough to light your way through the greenhouse jungle.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg EPB-crosses-data-2015.jpg (37.5 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg KimEvaF2-cluster.JPG (112.3 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg MEPBBBX-pinkandred.JPG (117.4 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg EVA-PI120256-greenfruit.JPG (85.8 KB, 69 views)
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20, 2016   #30
bower
Tomatovillian™
 
bower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
Default

Thanks Karen and MendozaMark too, for your interest.
It's a great learning experience, as I'm sure you'll agree Karen. The surprise factor is also quite a thrill.
bower is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:33 AM.


★ Tomatoville® is a registered trademark of Commerce Holdings, LLC ★ All Content ©2022 Commerce Holdings, LLC ★