ramblings of a non-profit donation garden

[jabbok]

JackE- I guess I'll get this thread started. I'd first like to say that our group is very humble in our attempts to help those in need. We are very cautious to bring attention to ourselves because our work is not for our own glory. That might seem pretty strange now that I'm coming on an open forum to discuss our project. This is simply an ave. to talk about what works, what doesn't and issues concerning the donation of fresh produce.

Our project came about due to an abundance of land at a local church, and the lack of produce that was available to food banks. We actually work with a food bank distribution center that distributes the produce to area food banks. They have an incredible cool storage capacity.

[JackE]

I gather that your project is not directly affiliated with the church - I think you said you lease the land from them. Our's is actually a church fund raising project, but we also supply fresh vegetables to needy families at no charge. Actually, we don't "charge" anyone, but simply have a donation can labelled "voluntary donations accepted". This is a 900 sq mile county with only 20K people and a lot of deep poverty. Most people put something in the can - maybe a dollar bill or some change - but most of our funds come from a small number of middle class families who support us generously - most donating much more than the vegetables are worth.

Each summer we fund a mission trip for our young people. They go to a small town in the mountains of eastern KY, hosted by a Baptist church there, and work with underprivileged children in a classroom type environment (summer Bible school), recreation and lots of food. There is a photo album on our Gardeners for Jesus Facebook page.

We have three active growers, including me, each working his own land and specializing in a few crops. I do tomatoes and okra. We have a couple who runs the veg stand and several others who help with the picking. We are all retired. Our whole congregation is quite elderly - our kids can't make a living here and have to go to Houston and Dallas to work - as we all did during our working years, but came home when we retired.

Another church here runs the local food bank. We have offered them veggies but they don't have cold storage and can't handle fresh food -only canned and dry. We take our surplus to an African-American church who distributes it to needy, sometimes seriously undernourished, homes. We have one 4X6 walk-in cold locker, donated by a local restaurant when they remodeled, which is located at my place. It really doesn't hold very much and we have to pick and load the truck in the mornings - often picking under lights at 3:00 AM in the busy summer.

Well, that's enough for one post and time to go to bed. I am 74 years-old.

Jack

[JackE]

".......our work is not for our own glory."

That's one of my problems ....BUT, we have to be very careful here not to say things that could lead to religious discussion - or motivate others to make religious comments. This is very difficult for us, because we talk a certain way, but we have to watch it. This moderator carries a big stick and takes no prisoners! LOL And that's what makes it a good forum! There are discussion areas on both of our Facebook pages that we can use without restrictions - and we're free to invite others to join us there.

Now that we've described our operations, we better stick to horticultural and logistical issues --- so, what kind of potatoes do y'all grow? We grow (not me but another guy in the project) only red Irish potatoes. As kids we practically lived on those - and they "tasted like the dirt they came out of", as my brother says. LOL The real small red potatoes in country gravy are okay - except for all the salt and cholesterol.

Diabetes and obesity are endemic around here. We supply healthy fresh veggies, but they still fry okra and pour bacon drippings on their turnip greens. They boil our beautiful yellow squash until it's mush, squeeze-out the water to form small balls and deep fry them in lard.

When I went to work in Houston and learned how civilized people eat, I switched to Russet. No way to grow them in this climate (believe me, I've tried) - but I bet y'all can grow Russet in northern PA?

Jack

PS - What happened to that thread we were on yesterday - the one we met on? There was a link to it here but now it's been deleted.

[jabbok]

Our project is not a lease, it directly tied to a church, and solely funded by that church.

I've come to this forum because I expect a stronger stick than I've experienced in the past at other places. If the mods see something out of line by all means call me out on it, I'm not here for political or religious discussions. I was just trying give some background and motivation behind the post.

The first year were grew three varieties of potatoes, Norland, Kennebec and Katahdin. We have found that kennebec work the best for us. I've never grown a russet in my life(guess its about time).

Last season we planted only kennebec and norlands, we had an awful year, hot with no rain. This coming season we are rigging up irrigation and only planting kennebec's. I did think about trialing Yukon gold, seems to be the potato of choice in these parts. Our average cost of seed potatoes is $0.38 pound

We also tried sweet corn (600 ears)our first year....the distributor held it to long and the quality was awful(lessons learned)

[JackE]

I don't know much of anything about potatoes, but I can discuss sweet corn. I don't grow it for the project but I am involved in the whole process. What was wrong with your corn? It could have been the seed, but more likely something else. Corn seed will last for 3 years at room temperature. What variety did you plant and how did you fertilize it?

The problem with corn for us is that it's such a short harvest interval. That is, it basically comes in all at once - even if we stagger plant. It only does well here if planted early and matures before summer heat sets in. We plant it on 2/15 and sometimes lose it to frost and have to re-plant - 3/15 is about our last chance, maybe 4/1. Ater that, the yields and quality are poor. It will be an all summer crop for you though. We usually harvest it in May.

Earworms are a major problem with our clientele - people don't accept a worm in the corn anymore. There are no worms in store corn because it's genetically modified with a bt gene - 90% of all commercial corn is now GMO. The seed is not available in small quantities, and we buy GMO sweet corn seed in a bag of 25M for about $250. It plants three acres (we only plant one a year) so we can get three years out of a bag. Those smaller bags are hard to get - it mostly comes in a bag of 100M. It hasn't completely stopped the earworms but slows them down enough to sell the corn to the public. If it weren't for the GMO seed, we would not grow it because it has to be sprayed with insecticide twice weekly to control the worms - and that's more than we are comfortable with. The Attribute (GMO from Syngenta) corn tastes just as good as the old Merit I planted for years, but the ears are smaller and not as fat (smaller kernels).

What's your first name?

Jack

[jabbok]

My name is Jonathon.

Potatoes grow well in these parts and are welcomed at most food banks, that's why we focus on them.

Sorry, The corn was harvested and then held at the distributor too long, thus making the corn starchy and tough, they thought we were picking field corn and sending it(not cool). We purchase our seed corn from a company in Lancaster PA (Rohrer Seeds). This us allows us to purchase 5lb bags for around $50. The only corn we planted was bodacious. I am only familiar with two other varieties (Incredible, Honey Select). Our season starts around may 15th(planting) with harvest in late July early Aug. We have tons of poultry manure and apply 2-3 tons per acre per year in the spring with immediate incorporation. Fertility is a non issue for us, water is tho.

We dont have to many issues with corn ear worm(yet). I have treated patches in the past with a mixture of bt and veggie oil dripped into the silk when it first appears, seemed to work well.

I didnt know the % of GMO sweet corn, I wouldnt even know where to get it around here. When you say 25M that is 25,000 seeds?

[JackE]

Hi Jonathan --

I know your best buddy, David (a little,"insider" joke - don't pursue it LOL) Yes, 25,000 seeds. Seed companies always use the old Roman M instead of the modern K to designate 1000. Tradition, I guess. But you probably don't need that GMO seed. Insects and diseases are nowhere near the problem up there as down here. The old varieties taste better, just like heirloom tomatoes! B

But your foodbank "market" is not going to be very discriminating. Just be sure you stay 100% on-label -, NO guesswork - when you use chemicals. And it's a good idea, to protect the church from potential liability, to always get approval from the exension agent and keep a record of it. Also, be very careful in handling produce to avoid possible bacterial contamination - don't, for example, trim the end of the corn to get rid of the earworm! (Our ladies were doing that at the vegetable stand and the health inspector warned us not to cut, peel or process anything!-that's when we went GMO)

Just about every food product contains corn in some form, even soft drinks use corn sweeteners, and virtually ALL of it is GMO corn. It worries some people. Unkown, long-term environmental effects worry me too (good movie plot - "Killer Worms From Hell" LOL) but you won't be in business long if you don't keep-up with technologies.

I've planted Bodacious - a good corn. Merit was always my favorite, though - exeptionally large ear. Corn is a nitrogen hog - it takes a LOT of N, and 3 tons of chicken manure/acre will deliver a LOT of N - at 12% (average for chucken poop), that would be 720# of N/acre/year - 100# of N/acre/year is considered adequate for corn. You sure DON'T have a fertility issue - unless it's potential for nitrogen burn. LOL Seriously, you Can burn stuff with chicken manure - I dumped a load next to a tree one time, for later use, and it killed the tree!! However, the N content will be lower if it's litter (sawdust, hay and stuff) - still plenty hot though. Unfortunately, all the poultry growers in our county are gone now. You're lucky to get it - nowadays, around here at least, the chicken farmers sell it to commercial composters under a contract arrangement. It's not free anymore!

.WATER - in normal years (which don't seem to exist anymore), we get a lot of rain, but even then some irrigation is necessary. I pump my water from a 4 acre pond on a year-round creek, and the other two growers each have 4" irrigation wells. I have one acre under gravity drip and two acres under sprinklers. The sprinklers are zoned, and my pump will handle 15 - 3/4" sprinklers at time, covering 1/2 acre per zone.

We couldn't possibly garden without water anymore - we used to be able to depend on rainfall but the weather has changed here. We don't get those summer thunderstorms 3 or 4 times a week like we used to - now it's a gulley washer followed by weeks of drought! And our sandy soil loses moisture quickly. Fortunately, our water table is very shallow (plenty at 40' on my place) and a usable 4" irrigation well can be completed for about $5K anywhere around here, including the submersible pump and all.

My dam was built by my father over 60 years ago, but I'm afraid the next hurricane will finish it off. The neighbors lake upstream was damaged in Rita and washed-out in Ike, sending a 6' head of water over my dam. It's holding by a thread, and will not be repairable because of new state regs - you can't just pile dirt across the creek with a dozer anymore - they require a concrete, steel-reinforced spillway, etc etc - prohibitive cost - 6 figures!

Ike and Rita were the first storms in my 75-year memory to bring full hurricane force winds to us - we're 80 miles north of the Gulf! Our church was always an evacuation shelter for Beaumont residents, but in Rite WE had to evacuate. Unbelievable!

I don't know your weather, but you probably need an irrigation well - maybe not as expensive as you think - and a long-term improvement for the church. Community or city water costs are absolutely prohibitive everywhere - at least in Texas. For anything more than a home garden, you gotta have a well - but they don't have to be deep like a drinking water well. You can use the cloudy, shallow water to irrigate with - as long as it is bacteria-free.

Jack

PS -- Might not be a bad idea to get that soil checked in a lab before adding more chicken manure again this spring - it is possible to overdo it. (We ALL wish we had THAT problem!)

[JackE]

It would seem to me that vegetable oil applied directly to the silk would cause pollination problems. The pollen has to stick to that silk - it's a delicate process. I guess the oil might be broken down and gone by the time the tassles mature and the pollen falls- but wouldn't that expose you to the egg-laying moth again? Do you ever have a problem with ears that aren't filled-out with kernels?

Our strategy was to focus on killing the moths with permethrin every three days rather than trying to keep the silk treated. The newly hatched larvae have to actually eat the bt. It wasn't uncommon for us to have several worms per ear, completly destroying thee crop, if we didn't spray aggressively - or re-apply the bt every time it rained or we ran the sprinklers. All in all, we did better with the moth spray and it wasn't so much work for the volunteers - who had to repeatedly walk every row with a backpak sprayer, carefully coating the silks on thousands of ears. We could apply the permethrin quickly with the big tractor sprayer.

For general use we prefer permethrin (very low-toxicity with short DHi's - 1 day on most crops, 3 on squash) - but for more serious problems (aphids) we use bifenthrin (Brigade - requires a commercial applicators license to purchase and apply - long DHI's, up to 21 days, a chem of last resort).

Permethrin is a synthesized version of the organic pesticide, Pyrethrum (chrysanthemum roots), and not much more toxic - pretty darn safe, but not approved for certified organic growers (mostly because of the solvents in the inert part, I think). It kills most insects, but not aphids -which require either Malathion or Bifenthrin (plus some other very dangerous chems for the applicator - who has to dress-up in a space suit!). Permethrin is widely used on animals and pets and we feel pretty comfortable with it.

When I was a child in the forties, my mother sprayed me with DDT (now banned) to kill and prevent the lice and ticks!! In later years she was appalled at what she had ignorantly done. But my brother and I are still kickin' - but not for too much longer LOL.

Maybe you already know all this stuff - if so, my apologies. Like I said, you don't have such serious problems as us in that regard. You have cold winters. All bugs survive year-round here.

Jack

[RinTinTin]

For aphids, I have always simply dusted with wood ash. I have had great results with it. Repeat applications will be need if new swarms arrive, or the next generation hatches. If any of your congregation heats with wood, find some way to collect their ashes ("Bring 'em to church with you every Sunday"). The aphids simply die on the spot within minutes, to be washed onto the soil with the next rain or sprinkling. Cheap, and safe...no HazMat certificate required.

[jabbok]

Originally Posted by RinTinTin

For aphids, I have always simply dusted with wood ash. I have had great results with it. Repeat applications will be need if new swarms arrive, or the next generation hatches. If any of your congregation heats with wood, find some way to collect their ashes ("Bring 'em to church with you every Sunday"). The aphids simply die on the spot within minutes, to be washed onto the soil with the next rain or sprinkling. Cheap, and safe...no HazMat certificate required.

Thanks for the tip.........its one that I've ever heard/thought of. I have an endless supply of wood stove ash, looks like I'll be saving some for this summer.

[jabbok]

Originally Posted by JackE

It would seem to me that vegetable oil applied directly to the silk would cause pollination problems. The pollen has to stick to that silk - it's a delicate process. I guess the oil might be broken down and gone by the time the tassles mature and the pollen falls- but wouldn't that expose you to the egg-laying moth again? Do you ever have a problem with ears that aren't filled-out with kernels?

Jack

I've never seen pollination issues with the veggie oil bt. It only takes a small amount to do the job. It is a pain because you have to walk the rows and treat each ear. It always requires an second app and you have to worry about retreating ones that were done in the first round.

[JackE]

Rin Tin --

That's one I've never heard of and I'm sure open minded on it. But how do you apply it?
Aphids are especially bad on peppers. We plant 12 -100' rows of bell peppers - about 600 large, bushy plants, and we have to get thorough coverage on the bottom side of all the leaves - tall order with a dry, dust-type product. It would all have to all be done by hand - couldn't use the sprayer. It would take a lot of ashes too - ours are real light and powdery with chunks of charcoal and unburned wood. Application would be the problem for us.

I've tried various dust-type pesticides over the years, not only Sevin but Rotenone, Dipel BT, diatamaceous clay, crushed tobacco leaves and other organic solutions as well, and bought all sorts of devices to blow it, brush it or somehow dust in on -panty hose, paint brushes, shaker cans etc etc. but I haven't found a tool that works. Some of those crank-type and plunger dusters are a killer - 30 minutes and it feels like your arm is falling off!

Instead of Dipel dust bt we use Thuricide spray bt which is more costly but MUCH easier to apply.

Jack

[JackE]

Jonathon--

That sounds too time-consuming for your present operation- or ours Just 1/4 acre of sweet corn with 12" spacing and 24" row centers is about 5K plants - 2 ears per plant (on paper - not in real life LOL). That would be way too much to ask of your help. I fear that you are going to discover, with two-acres of vegetables, that many of the organic solutions that work in your home garden are going to be too labor-intensive for your market garden.

Organic produce brings premium prices because labor and chemical costs are so high. A 55 gal drum of 4%N fish emulsion cost a friend of mine $1200 + freight, for example , and it dpoesn't go all that far. The Neem oil insecticide he uses would be prohibitive for us.

Successful organic agriculture requires a special kind of upscale market. Organic solutions work as well as conventional (if you know what you're doing LOL) - they're just not competitive in the general marketplace. It's a niche market - and a VERY lucrative one too! But not consistent with the objectives of our projects - at least not on an economic level.

We have to mechanize as much of this as we can - otherwise we will work our volunteers to death and the project will collapse. I see on FB that y'all have a tractor - what implements do you have? What do you spread all that manure with -landscape rake? Do you have pto-driven tiller or do y'all just use discs?

We have a 60 gal trailer mounted sprayer that runs-off the pto. Couldn't get along without it. We use it for everything - fertilizer, watering new seedbeds, etc.

Jack

[JackE]

Jonathon, I really should mention that there is a cultural dimension to the organic/conventional question that is also very important to consider. People in Vermont, for example, or perhaps northern PA, have a very different perspective on these matters than our people do.

The organic-oriented gardening community in Vermont would not balk at having to spend a whole weekend coating corn silks by hand - our volunteers, on the other hand, would simply not do it! It would be a ridiculous and pointless excersize from their perspective. And, there would be no appreciation of the extra efforts by the consumers of our vegetables either.

So all of this has to be put in a cultural context. Organic gardening is highly correlated with socioeconomic level.

Jack

[JackE]

I assume that most of you organic growers are familiar with Spinosad by now, but if you're not you need to be. This is an organic insecticide, derived from soil bacteria and synthesized in much the same way as the bacillus thuringiesis(sp?) organism. Like bt, it kills all lepidopera species, but also effectively controls some common beetles, most all thrips and a few leafminers. Available in spray formulations, you get more bang for your buck. Mode of action is the same as bt - the insect must ingest it.

It's been a real lifesaver for leaf miners because you can spray very close to harvest and is becoming the chemical of choice for spinach growers in the Rio Grande Valley - the spinach producing capital of the world!

It's widely available in retail sizes and concentrations under various brands. If you're certified, or just a "purist" be careful - some brands have surfactants and other adjuvants that might not carry organic approval.

Jack