2009 Surprises

Tania · March 16, 2009

Most of my seedlings are up and some are beyond the 2nd set of leaves stage, so for some of them it is becoming obvious whether they grew 'true to type'.

This year I grow many more seedlings per variety, and I am seeing some 'surprises' coming up in some of the seed cells. I love these little surprises and I am looking forward to growing them out to see if a good cross arise.

Here are the surprises so far:

Yellow Submarine - from a 2007 trade, 1 regular leaf out of 12 seedlings
Mule Team - potato leaf; all seedlings are correct from another source. As the first batch of seeds did not germinate well (2 seedlings out of 10, 1 RL and 1 PL), I started second batch to see what the PL/RL ratio is, still waiting to see what I'll get.
Zogola - potato leaf (2 different sources, 2006 trades). All seedlings are PL, except 1 that was RL, which I am no sure whether it is a cross of the PL Zogola or a 'true' Zogola... We will see
Big Sungold - from a SSE member, 3 PL and 2 RL seedlings. 1 PL is definitely a 'dwarf'
Weisnicht's Ukrainian - from a SSE member, all seedlings are PL - should be RL. Likely a seed mix-up.

I am especially looking forward to the PL Big Sungold and Mule Team PL, as I am sure that would be very interesting crosses. Yellow Submarine RL is also interesting.

There are also some subtle differences in foliage of the following varieties, so I may see some more 'surprises' later in the season

Black Early - from a SSE member. 1 plant has much more narrow foliage and lighter in color. Probably not a problem, but it is worth following up.
Tiny Tim - from my own 2003 seeds. 2 seedlings out of 6 seem to be taller than the rest

So accidental crosses are not as uncommon as some of us may think

The disappointing part is that I need to look for true Zogola (RL) again, and it may not come in time for 2009 growing. Sigh.

Tania

**carolyn137** · March 16, 2009

Tania, when you say Big Sungold are you referrinf to Reinhard Kraft's Big Sungold Select, new for this year ?

I ask b'c I thought they were only offered, perhaps by Manfred at Reinhard's website, and maybe that's where the crossing occurred. I don't know. All I know if that Big Sungold Select is on Reinhard's personal growout list for 2008.

I have seeds for Big Sungold Select directly from Reinhard so I'll let you know what leaf form, not I, b/c gardenmama who raises my plants and bcday, who does most of the seed production see when they sow the seed.

I did just check my 2009 Yearbook and see Big Sungold, but not Big Sungold Select listed and the oiriginal source was M. Hartmann in 2006, so I guess what you have is Big Sungold and not Big Sungold Select which is a more recent development.

AS for Zogola, I could take a quick look to see if I still have some older Zogola seeds, which are RL as they should be. But I don't know, if I do find them, if they'd get to you quick enough. Your choice.

What you report seems like quite a high level of crossed seeds, but then I don't know how many those represent out of how many total you started that are OK for at least leaf form at this point.

patty_b · March 16, 2009

Just did a quick search for Potato Leaves but still
have a few that are too small to tell yet.

My Winsall and Abraham Lincoln are RL (not sure if it should be PL)

Galinas PL
Russian Apple Tree PL
Tonadose des Conores PL
ABC PL PL
Edouard PL
Mrs. Maxwell's Big Italian PL
Indiana Heirloom PL
Elbe 1 PL 2 RL Pl is correct isn't it????
Eli PL
Croatian Heart Mystery PL
Large Pink Bulgarian Heart PL
Nicholeavna noted should be PL but no germination

Do I have any incorrect leaf types in the potato leaves?
Haven't look though all the RL's for any strays yet but all
and all seems pretty accurate.

Patty

**carolyn137** · March 16, 2009

[quote=patty_b;124191]Just did a quick search for Potato Leaves but still
have a few that are too small to tell yet.

Patty, I'd have to look up the ones I don't know but can indicate which ones I do know.

My Winsall and Abraham Lincoln are RL (not sure if it should be PL); both are RL

Galinas PL, correct
Russian Apple Tree PL, don't know
Tonadose des Conores PL, don't know
ABC PL PL, don't know
Edouard PL, don't know
Mrs. Maxwell's Big Italian PL. don't know

Indiana Heirloom PL, I don't know an Indiana Heirloom but do know Indiana Red, which is RL
Elbe 1 PL 2 RL Pl is correct isn't it????; PL is correct
Eli PL, don't know
Croatian Heart Mystery PL, don't know

Large Pink Bulgarian Heart PL, ; I only know Large Pink Bulgarian which is RL and no heart variant is listed in the SSE Yearbook, to date

Nicholeavna noted should be PL but no germination

Do I have any incorrect leaf types in the potato leaves?
Haven't look though all the RL's for any strays yet but all
and all seems pretty accurate.

****
I'm sure someone knows some of the other varieties but for some of them I'd have to look them up.

Tania · March 16, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Tania, when you say Big Sungold are you referrinf to Reinhard Kraft's Big Sungold Select, new for this year ?

I ask b'c I thought they were only offered, perhaps by Manfred at Reinhard's website, and maybe that's where the crossing occurred. I don't know. All I know if that Big Sungold Select is on Reinhard's personal growout list for 2008.

I have seeds for Big Sungold Select directly from Reinhard so I'll let you know what leaf form, not I, b/c gardenmama who raises my plants and bcday, who does most of the seed production see when they sow the seed.

I did just check my 2009 Yearbook and see Big Sungold, but not Big Sungold Select listed and the oiriginal source was M. Hartmann in 2006, so I guess what you have is Big Sungold and not Big Sungold Select which is a more recent development.

AS for Zogola, I could take a quick look to see if I still have some older Zogola seeds, which are RL as they should be. But I don't know, if I do find them, if they'd get to you quick enough. Your choice.

What you report seems like quite a high level of crossed seeds, but then I don't know how many those represent out of how many total you started that are OK for at least leaf form at this point.

Carolyn,

This is a Big Sungold, and not Big Sungold Select, but it was also originally from M. Hartmann (2006?) and may have crossed in the subsequent growouts by at least 2 other growers (or were unstable to start with - maybe this is where the Big Sungold Select has come from?

)

Re Zogola - if you find some seeds, I will be very grateful to have some (maybe along with more Gold Ball that failed to sprout for me). i think I am cursed, as I kept getting the PL Zogola, starting at 2005, and now again in 2009, from two different sources. I wonder if the 'wrong' Zogola was traded around a lot...

I have 165 varieties started, and ~130 in the 2nd leaf stage, so it is not a very high percentage of crossed seeds, 4-6% so far, at least at this stage. Of course there may be more later on. I am surprised to see more 'wrong' PLs showing up, so I think some of these may indeed be a mixup, not a cross.

Tania · March 16, 2009

Patty,

Indiana Heirloom is PL
Mrs. Maxwell's Big Italian is PL
Eli is PL

Tonadose des Conores - not 100% sure, but for some reason I thought it should be RL

**carolyn137** · March 16, 2009

Tania, I did look in the most obvious places for Zogola today and I have one more place to look before thinking that the older seeds are still in the vials which means they're very old indeed.

I'll let you know here tomorrow sometime.

And yes, I know Reinhard has said he was working on a newer selection of Sungold, so the Big Sungold Select must be that one.

If I don't find the Zogola seeds do you still want the Gold Ball seeds? Anything else from my seed offer list?

I have to confess that I was curious to see how you translated Couilles de Taureau, but you didn't.

Why did you aka it as Couilles Toro, which makes it half Spanish ( Toro) and half French ( Couilles)?

Yes, I know the origin is Spain, but Iim not sure I know the Spanish equivalent for Couilles.

And if I list it or offer it I'm not sure right now exactly how I'll translate it into English. I mean I do know, but, ahem, just how much does one want to share about the real translation.

Tania · March 16, 2009

Quote:

Why did you aka it as Couilles Toro, which makes it half Spanish ( Toro) and half French ( Couilles)?

Carolyn, this is how I thought it was listed at Tomodori.com, http://www.tomodori.com/fichephoto.php?nom=Couilles%20De%20Taureau - now I checked it out again and I am no longer sure how I got it so wrong!!!

Thank you so much for looking for Zogola seeds for me!

If you do not find it, then please do not send Gold Ball either, but if you do find Zogola, I'd love to re-try Gold Ball.

Tania

Tania · March 16, 2009

Quote:

And if I list it or offer it I'm not sure right now exactly how I'll translate it into English. I mean I do know, but, ahem, just how much does one want to share about the real translation.

OMG. Now I get it!

I have to confess that I did not know French this well.

montanamato · March 17, 2009

Tania...I have Zogola seeds from Sand Hill, 2 or 3 years old...I have never grown them, but they are original seeds and I assume from Carolyn's seeds to start...
If you want them let me know...I have cut back drastically on my later season tomatoes and I have decided Zogola might not have enough time in my garden.

Jeanne

**carolyn137** · March 17, 2009

Tania, I did find the last of my more recent Zogola Seeds this AM, and they probably date to about 1996 or 07 b/c they'd be the ones I used for the plants used for photography in 1998. There were 17 seeds left which I packaged up along with another pack with about 30+ seeds of Gold Ball from 2002.

I addressed the envelope, put the stamp on and came here to read that Jeanne had much more recent Zogola seeds so why don't you accept her offer?

Jeanne would also know they were correct for the variety and I say that b/c I checked the Zogola listings in the 2008 and 2009 Yearbooks and everyone said RL, but someone said 4 inch ROUND reds, seeds from Sandhill. I did send both Zogola and Gold BAll to Glenn b'c he wanted all the varieties in my book that he didn't already have, and he still lists them with the correct info.

So do ask Jeanne for hers, and since I already have the stamp on the envelope I'm sending to you I'm going to go ahead and send it this AM.

For the Gold Ball ,if it were me I'd soak the seeds at least 12-18 hours, poking the seeds down to be sure they sink, and maybe adding a few drops of fish or seaweed emulsion or a pinch or so of Miracle Grow or Peters if you aren't organic. And keeping the soaking seeds warm might also help. And same for the Zogola seeds if you want to try and wake them up as well. It can be done; my record is waking up 22 yo seed.

Now, about our favorite tomato variety Couilles de Torneau.

You missed a thread started by Angelo Dornay where he was discussing his new variety Thaise, and in that thread I asked him about Couilles b'c I knew that Reinhard had gotten it from him and I got it from Reinhard.

Well, I'll let you read what was in that thread where the translation I'd been given was correct and all Angelo could do was to Ha Ha Ha his reply.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=10546

Tania · March 17, 2009

Jeanne - thank you, that'll be wonderful, I will take you up on your offer as Carolyn suggested. I only have a couple of weeks before it will be too late to start seeds here.

Btw, your Gail's Sweet Plum from Sandhill 2005 continues germinating, slowly but steadily, and the germination rate is now 50%. Not bad at all!

Tania

Tania · March 17, 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Now, about our favorite tomato variety Couilles de Torneau.

You missed a thread started by Angelo Dornay where he was discussing his new variety Thaise, and in that thread I asked him about Couilles b'c I knew that Reinhard had gotten it from him and I got it from Reinhard.

Well, I'll let you read what was in that thread where the translation I'd been given was correct and all Angelo could do was to Ha Ha Ha his reply.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=10546

Yes, I did miss quite a few very interesting threads lately

This is the busiest time for me - planting, work, my grown up kids looking for a job or going to University, house reno, etc, etc. And I am also trying to re-learn how to play piano (before I get too old to be able to do it

. I hope it'll be less busy after all the plants are in the ground, which will be sometime in June, including cukes, melons, and squash.

Jeanne and Carolyn - thank you so much for rescuing me from my Zogola mess!

montanamato · March 17, 2009

Tania.........PM or email an address and I can get them sent today...

Jeanne

Tania · March 21, 2009

More 'surprises':

Stump of the World - 1 RL, 4 PL.
German Red Strawberry - all PL (from one source (trade)); the seeds from Baker Creek were correct

2nd batch of Mule Team had 2 seedlings from 10 seeds, 1 PL and 1 RL again, same as the first batch. Interesting

March 16, 2009	#1
Tania Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Anmore, BC, Canada Posts: 3,970	2009 Surprises Most of my seedlings are up and some are beyond the 2nd set of leaves stage, so for some of them it is becoming obvious whether they grew 'true to type'. This year I grow many more seedlings per variety, and I am seeing some 'surprises' coming up in some of the seed cells. I love these little surprises and I am looking forward to growing them out to see if a good cross arise. Here are the surprises so far: Yellow Submarine - from a 2007 trade, 1 regular leaf out of 12 seedlings Mule Team - potato leaf; all seedlings are correct from another source. As the first batch of seeds did not germinate well (2 seedlings out of 10, 1 RL and 1 PL), I started second batch to see what the PL/RL ratio is, still waiting to see what I'll get. Zogola - potato leaf (2 different sources, 2006 trades). All seedlings are PL, except 1 that was RL, which I am no sure whether it is a cross of the PL Zogola or a 'true' Zogola... We will see Big Sungold - from a SSE member, 3 PL and 2 RL seedlings. 1 PL is definitely a 'dwarf' Weisnicht's Ukrainian - from a SSE member, all seedlings are PL - should be RL. Likely a seed mix-up. I am especially looking forward to the PL Big Sungold and Mule Team PL, as I am sure that would be very interesting crosses. Yellow Submarine RL is also interesting. There are also some subtle differences in foliage of the following varieties, so I may see some more 'surprises' later in the season Black Early - from a SSE member. 1 plant has much more narrow foliage and lighter in color. Probably not a problem, but it is worth following up. Tiny Tim - from my own 2003 seeds. 2 seedlings out of 6 seem to be taller than the rest So accidental crosses are not as uncommon as some of us may think The disappointing part is that I need to look for true Zogola (RL) again, and it may not come in time for 2009 growing. Sigh. Tania __________________ Tatiana's TOMATObase Last edited by Tania; March 23, 2009 at 04:22 PM.

March 16, 2009	#2
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Tania, when you say Big Sungold are you referrinf to Reinhard Kraft's Big Sungold Select, new for this year ? I ask b'c I thought they were only offered, perhaps by Manfred at Reinhard's website, and maybe that's where the crossing occurred. I don't know. All I know if that Big Sungold Select is on Reinhard's personal growout list for 2008. I have seeds for Big Sungold Select directly from Reinhard so I'll let you know what leaf form, not I, b/c gardenmama who raises my plants and bcday, who does most of the seed production see when they sow the seed. I did just check my 2009 Yearbook and see Big Sungold, but not Big Sungold Select listed and the oiriginal source was M. Hartmann in 2006, so I guess what you have is Big Sungold and not Big Sungold Select which is a more recent development. AS for Zogola, I could take a quick look to see if I still have some older Zogola seeds, which are RL as they should be. But I don't know, if I do find them, if they'd get to you quick enough. Your choice. What you report seems like quite a high level of crossed seeds, but then I don't know how many those represent out of how many total you started that are OK for at least leaf form at this point. __________________ Carolyn

March 16, 2009	#3
patty_b Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 487	Just did a quick search for Potato Leaves but still have a few that are too small to tell yet. My Winsall and Abraham Lincoln are RL (not sure if it should be PL) Galinas PL Russian Apple Tree PL Tonadose des Conores PL ABC PL PL Edouard PL Mrs. Maxwell's Big Italian PL Indiana Heirloom PL Elbe 1 PL 2 RL Pl is correct isn't it???? Eli PL Croatian Heart Mystery PL Large Pink Bulgarian Heart PL Nicholeavna noted should be PL but no germination Do I have any incorrect leaf types in the potato leaves? Haven't look though all the RL's for any strays yet but all and all seems pretty accurate. Patty Last edited by patty_b; March 16, 2009 at 06:37 PM. Reason: missed one

March 16, 2009	#4
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	[quote=patty_b;124191]Just did a quick search for Potato Leaves but still have a few that are too small to tell yet. Patty, I'd have to look up the ones I don't know but can indicate which ones I do know. My Winsall and Abraham Lincoln are RL (not sure if it should be PL); both are RL Galinas PL, correct Russian Apple Tree PL, don't know Tonadose des Conores PL, don't know ABC PL PL, don't know Edouard PL, don't know Mrs. Maxwell's Big Italian PL. don't know Indiana Heirloom PL, I don't know an Indiana Heirloom but do know Indiana Red, which is RL Elbe 1 PL 2 RL Pl is correct isn't it????; PL is correct Eli PL, don't know Croatian Heart Mystery PL, don't know Large Pink Bulgarian Heart PL, ; I only know Large Pink Bulgarian which is RL and no heart variant is listed in the SSE Yearbook, to date Nicholeavna noted should be PL but no germination Do I have any incorrect leaf types in the potato leaves? Haven't look though all the RL's for any strays yet but all and all seems pretty accurate. **** I'm sure someone knows some of the other varieties but for some of them I'd have to look them up. __________________ Carolyn

March 16, 2009	#6
Tania Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Anmore, BC, Canada Posts: 3,970	Patty, Indiana Heirloom is PL Mrs. Maxwell's Big Italian is PL Eli is PL Tonadose des Conores - not 100% sure, but for some reason I thought it should be RL __________________ Tatiana's TOMATObase

March 17, 2009	#10
montanamato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Montana Posts: 1,038	Tania...I have Zogola seeds from Sand Hill, 2 or 3 years old...I have never grown them, but they are original seeds and I assume from Carolyn's seeds to start... If you want them let me know...I have cut back drastically on my later season tomatoes and I have decided Zogola might not have enough time in my garden. Jeanne

March 21, 2009	#15
Tania Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Anmore, BC, Canada Posts: 3,970	More 'surprises': Stump of the World - 1 RL, 4 PL. German Red Strawberry - all PL (from one source (trade)); the seeds from Baker Creek were correct 2nd batch of Mule Team had 2 seedlings from 10 seeds, 1 PL and 1 RL again, same as the first batch. Interesting __________________ Tatiana's TOMATObase Last edited by Tania; March 23, 2009 at 04:23 PM.