13-13-13

les matzek · June 16, 2011

I just bought some Mittleider Magic
it is 13-8-13 how can i bump the
p to 13 thanks

Les

dice · June 17, 2011

You would mix it pound for pound with a 13-18-13.

Never seen that, you would need to custom order it
from someplace that will make a custom N-P-K fertilizer
for you. I would just add a tablespoon of high phosphate
guano or superphosphate to a pound of the 13-8-13 and
call it close enough.

Be sure to try a plant or two without the extra phosphate,
too. 13-8-13 may actually be enough phosphorous.

amideutch · June 17, 2011

Les, went to Resh's site and they are saying the 13-8-13 (2-1-2 ratio)is better than the 13-13-13. Here's a copy from the site. Ami

Quote:

It’s easy and hassle-free to mix a packet of micro-nutrients with 25#’s of 16-16-16 and 4# of Epsom Salt to obtain a good Weekly Feed. It’s also very inexpensive, when compared to anything else that’s even close to comparable, such as Miracle Gro.
For those of you who can’t find pre-mixed 16-16-16, 15-15-15, 13-13-13-, or 17-17-17, all of which are usable with the pre-packaged micro-nutrients, then check a farm-supply store for bags of each separately.
For example, you may be able to find 21-0-0 (ammonium sulfate), and 0-45-0 (triple super phosphate), and 0-0-50 (potassium sulfate). If so, mix 15# 21-0-0 with 4# 0-45-0, and 6# 0-0-50. That gives you 25# of a 110-60-110 mix, which is approximately the ratio in which your plants use the three Macro-Nutrients, and is even better than 16-16-16, etc.
Then add 4# of Epsom Salt from your pharmacy – mix it all together and you have the Weekly Feed mix.

gill_s · June 17, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by amideutch

Les, went to Resh's site and they are saying the 13-8-13 (2-1-2 ratio)is better than the 13-13-13. Here's a copy from the site. Ami

I have just come upon this thread titled 13-13-13, when I was searching for quantities of Epsom Salts to use in a foliar spray. This seemed to be the first and only page and I am intrigued to know at what stage you are using this to feed, presumably tomatoes.
I understood that nutrients that high in N were not suitable for tomatoes as they produce too much leaf, but then I am not sure in which circumstance you are suggestig this.
Thanks

les matzek · June 17, 2011

hi ami,
thanks for your reply.i though that
bumping up the jacob mittleider
magic weekly feed mix could make
it better ? maybe not ??, i just got
a 25# bag of it last week thanks
again. les

gill,
the 13-8-13 was made by jacob mittielder
i think he was the first to use the square
foot gardening ?, he had a big nursery
in redlands ca. for many years and he
sold it in the late 1960's.
he started the food for every one
foundation and his nutes are still
being sold by the steve regan co.
regards.

les
foot

dice · June 17, 2011

gill_s, this is a system where they add small amounts of fertilizer weekly
to the soil or container mix. You can find more information here:
http://foodforeveryone.org/index.php

Here is the products page from that site:
http://foodforeveryone.org/fertilizers/

There is a thread here where you can find it applied by Carolyn Phillips
and see pictures of her plants:
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=18309

As for epsom salt, it is widely available, from 50lb bags for
horticultural use to small quantities at deparment stores, pharmacists,
and so on.

This paper on "Epsom Salt Myths" from a respected horticultural
researcher is worth reading for anyone contemplating using it:
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%2...om%20salts.pdf

The "Mittleider method" is intended to supply whatever a plant
needs in the way of N-P-K and trace elements, thus the addition of
epsom salt as a magnesium and sulfur source. You could probably
grow plants in mulched, washed sand and use the Mittleider fertilizers
and it would work (as long as you kept careful track of water levels, etc).

Where anything unused in the fertilizer goes after it leaches through
the sand is anyone's guess.

les matzek · June 17, 2011

hi gill,
if you want to you can order mittielder
magic mix from stevs regan co. it is
24.72 dollars a bag plus shipping

like ami said in his post above that
13-8-13 is better than 13-13-13 so
i will use the bag that i bought from
steve regan co. as is and not try to
bump to 13-13-13, regards.

les

gill_s · June 17, 2011

Thank you for your replies.
Also thank you for the links,Dice.
Now I am totally confused. I always thought the level of N should be only half that of K, otherwise there would be too much lush growth and poor fruit set. Certainly the thread showing Caroline's greenhouse with the amazing tomatoes would belie that argument.
Unfortunately here in the UK we cannot get many of the products,such as the Micronutrient mix, which you can.
Certainly all the tomato feeds here eg Tomorite have considerably higher K than N. I have in front of me a box of Chempak soluble Tomato Food which is 11-9-30. These are recommended for once the first truss sets, before then the recommendation is no extra feed. Here in the UK most people grow in much smaller containers or grow bags, with often 3 plants per bag.
Maybe our high K content is why we nearly always get Magnesium deficient plants.
I should certainly like to mix my own fertilisers, I shall have to investigate whether there is anywhere here that does sell the micronutients.
Thanks again, Gill

dice · June 18, 2011

I think the Mittleider fertilizer ratios are more general purpose,
not just for tomatoes. They will probably grow any kind of vegetable.
That may be more nitrogen than a tomato plant needs but not
necessarily more than a squash or okra or spinach or whatever needs.

gill_s · June 18, 2011

OK, thanks.
That is in line with what I thought.
We struggle every year to know just how much feed to give the tomatoes. We grow in containers in a self-watering system, with wicks from 11litre pots going into a common reservoir( up to 8 pots in the system). We only allow the one vine,removing all other side shoots. We have several of these systems, some in the Greenhouse and some outside.
The nutrient which comes with the kit is intended for anything you may want to grow, from lettuces, beans, cucumbers, peppers, tomatoes etc.
We felt that this nutrient would not be adequate for tomatoes carrying several trusses of fruit, At the other extreme we bought some Peters Professional at 9-9-36, being advised that this would give a better flavoured tomato.
We were advised by one of te PP technical guys that there would not be too much potassium to use this in the system reservoirs from when the plants had flowers. It obviously was too much as the plants are showing severe Magnesium deficiency which I gather is caused by excess K.
The tomato food manufacturers seem to all give differing advice about how much to feed, some of them not differentiating between container grown and garden grown plants, leaving the non experts totally confused!

les matzek · June 18, 2011

Hi Dice,
Dr. Jacob Mittielder had a degree in plantology
he traveled all over the world teaching and setting
up large scale sq.ft. gardening systems his passion
was mainly tomatoes this is how he developed the
Mittlielder magic mix.
I have been using this mix for the past week and I can
see a big difference in green up plus alot of fruit too I
have been using foliage pro for the last three years
with very good results also but from now on I'll be
using the Mittlieder MIX from now on as I can't and
won't ignore or contradict the tremendous results
he achieved through uis fifty years of experiments.

(just look at carolyn philips plants )

Les

maf · June 18, 2011

gill,
I also have difficulty choosing which nutrients to pick from what is available in the UK market. Many of the specialised tomato foods are very good, but I fear many of them are lacking in some of the micronutrients so may not be the best choice for some container or semi-hydro systems.

I have had good success using Phostrogen on my indoor container tomato plants over winter/early spring this year. It is 14-10-27, so more balanced than the Peters stuff, and has all the micronutrients. The only extra thing I have added is a very small amount of Epsom salts for a little extra mg. I used it at quarter strength at (nearly) every watering, bottom watered in trays so similar to a wicking system, and plenty of perlite and bark in the potting mix to help aerate the roots.

I understand that in the early days of hydroponics, before there were any specialist nutrients on the market, the pioneers used Phostrogen as the basis for their experiments.

I am going to be using the Phostrogen on most of my outdoors container plants this year, and will let you know how I get on.

**mdvpc** · June 18, 2011

You folks in England, can you find General Hydroponics ferts? If so, you may want to check out Flora Nova Grow. Its 7-4-10 with complete micronutrients. I am using it in my grow bags and having a very good experience.

maf · June 18, 2011

It seems we can get the FloraNova Grow at the websites that deal to the cannabis growing crowd. Very expensive though, at least five times the cost of Phostrogen, probably more. I see it listed at £20 ($32) for 1 litre (quarter of a US gallon). Is it cheaper than that in the US?

**mdvpc** · June 19, 2011

Mag

Definitely. I just got it for $64.00 for a gallon, and that included shipping. It goes a long way at 1-2 teaspoon per 4 litres.

June 16, 2011	#1
les matzek Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Landers, CA Posts: 191	13-13-13 I just bought some Mittleider Magic it is 13-8-13 how can i bump the p to 13 thanks Les

June 17, 2011	#2
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	You would mix it pound for pound with a 13-18-13. Never seen that, you would need to custom order it from someplace that will make a custom N-P-K fertilizer for you. I would just add a tablespoon of high phosphate guano or superphosphate to a pound of the 13-8-13 and call it close enough. Be sure to try a plant or two without the extra phosphate, too. 13-8-13 may actually be enough phosphorous. __________________ -- alias

June 17, 2011	#6
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	gill_s, this is a system where they add small amounts of fertilizer weekly to the soil or container mix. You can find more information here: http://foodforeveryone.org/index.php Here is the products page from that site: http://foodforeveryone.org/fertilizers/ There is a thread here where you can find it applied by Carolyn Phillips and see pictures of her plants: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=18309 As for epsom salt, it is widely available, from 50lb bags for horticultural use to small quantities at deparment stores, pharmacists, and so on. This paper on "Epsom Salt Myths" from a respected horticultural researcher is worth reading for anyone contemplating using it: http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%2...om%20salts.pdf The "Mittleider method" is intended to supply whatever a plant needs in the way of N-P-K and trace elements, thus the addition of epsom salt as a magnesium and sulfur source. You could probably grow plants in mulched, washed sand and use the Mittleider fertilizers and it would work (as long as you kept careful track of water levels, etc). Where anything unused in the fertilizer goes after it leaches through the sand is anyone's guess. __________________ -- alias Last edited by dice; June 19, 2011 at 04:21 AM. Reason: trivial

June 17, 2011	#8
gill_s Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 180	13-13-13 Thank you for your replies. Also thank you for the links,Dice. Now I am totally confused. I always thought the level of N should be only half that of K, otherwise there would be too much lush growth and poor fruit set. Certainly the thread showing Caroline's greenhouse with the amazing tomatoes would belie that argument. Unfortunately here in the UK we cannot get many of the products,such as the Micronutrient mix, which you can. Certainly all the tomato feeds here eg Tomorite have considerably higher K than N. I have in front of me a box of Chempak soluble Tomato Food which is 11-9-30. These are recommended for once the first truss sets, before then the recommendation is no extra feed. Here in the UK most people grow in much smaller containers or grow bags, with often 3 plants per bag. Maybe our high K content is why we nearly always get Magnesium deficient plants. I should certainly like to mix my own fertilisers, I shall have to investigate whether there is anywhere here that does sell the micronutients. Thanks again, Gill

June 18, 2011	#9
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	I think the Mittleider fertilizer ratios are more general purpose, not just for tomatoes. They will probably grow any kind of vegetable. That may be more nitrogen than a tomato plant needs but not necessarily more than a squash or okra or spinach or whatever needs. __________________ -- alias

June 18, 2011	#10
gill_s Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Kent, UK Posts: 180	13-13-13 OK, thanks. That is in line with what I thought. We struggle every year to know just how much feed to give the tomatoes. We grow in containers in a self-watering system, with wicks from 11litre pots going into a common reservoir( up to 8 pots in the system). We only allow the one vine,removing all other side shoots. We have several of these systems, some in the Greenhouse and some outside. The nutrient which comes with the kit is intended for anything you may want to grow, from lettuces, beans, cucumbers, peppers, tomatoes etc. We felt that this nutrient would not be adequate for tomatoes carrying several trusses of fruit, At the other extreme we bought some Peters Professional at 9-9-36, being advised that this would give a better flavoured tomato. We were advised by one of te PP technical guys that there would not be too much potassium to use this in the system reservoirs from when the plants had flowers. It obviously was too much as the plants are showing severe Magnesium deficiency which I gather is caused by excess K. The tomato food manufacturers seem to all give differing advice about how much to feed, some of them not differentiating between container grown and garden grown plants, leaving the non experts totally confused!

June 18, 2011	#12
maf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: England Posts: 512	gill, I also have difficulty choosing which nutrients to pick from what is available in the UK market. Many of the specialised tomato foods are very good, but I fear many of them are lacking in some of the micronutrients so may not be the best choice for some container or semi-hydro systems. I have had good success using Phostrogen on my indoor container tomato plants over winter/early spring this year. It is 14-10-27, so more balanced than the Peters stuff, and has all the micronutrients. The only extra thing I have added is a very small amount of Epsom salts for a little extra mg. I used it at quarter strength at (nearly) every watering, bottom watered in trays so similar to a wicking system, and plenty of perlite and bark in the potting mix to help aerate the roots. I understand that in the early days of hydroponics, before there were any specialist nutrients on the market, the pioneers used Phostrogen as the basis for their experiments. I am going to be using the Phostrogen on most of my outdoors container plants this year, and will let you know how I get on.

June 18, 2011	#13
mdvpc Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 4,386	You folks in England, can you find General Hydroponics ferts? If so, you may want to check out Flora Nova Grow. Its 7-4-10 with complete micronutrients. I am using it in my grow bags and having a very good experience. __________________ Michael

June 19, 2011	#15
mdvpc Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 4,386	Mag Definitely. I just got it for $64.00 for a gallon, and that included shipping. It goes a long way at 1-2 teaspoon per 4 litres. __________________ Michael