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Old September 24, 2015   #1
charline
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Default size of seeds in a variety

is the size of the seeds in one variety almost always about the same or can it vary a lot?
I am very careful for saving seeds. I take only average size fruits, not the smallest and not the biggest. And I label it very carefully.
But this time I had in a variety in one fruit big seeds and in another fruit much smaller seeds. It made me really think it is not the same variety.
can that happen? or did I really mix up something?
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Old September 24, 2015   #2
JLJ_
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Originally Posted by charline View Post
is the size of the seeds in one variety almost always about the same or can it vary a lot?
I am very careful for saving seeds. I take only average size fruits, not the smallest and not the biggest. And I label it very carefully.
But this time I had in a variety in one fruit big seeds and in another fruit much smaller seeds. It made me really think it is not the same variety.
can that happen? or did I really mix up something?

Is there a chance that the smaller seeds might not be mature or not real fertile seeds?
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Old September 24, 2015   #3
ContainerTed
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While I've not done a controlled study and collected data, I've always maintained that a particular variety, in a particular year, and from a particular plant will have seeds that are consistantly the same size in a given year. I know that doesn't help, but what I'm saying is that I let the plants tell me each year what size the seeds will be within a given variety. So, what I look for is the size of the seeds from a particular plant will be be somewhat consistant.

Also, I do like the larger seeds. The plants they give me seem to have more vigor. I have "guessed" that it might be due to the larger germplasm they contain. Now small fruited cherries like Matt's Wild Cherry will have consistantly smaller seeds when compared to most other tomato types. The seeds of Sara's Galapagos are just slightly larger than Matt's Wild Cherry and slightly smaller than most saladette sized fruits. Some large one pound sized fruits will have smaller seeds than most of the Dwarf Project varieties.

What I'm saying here is that each variety will tell you what its average size is from a given plant. Generally, when two or more plants are used to gather seed in a given year, there will be almost no differences in the sizes of the seeds.

Now, add to that there are probably several dozen variables that can affect this and you have your answer - it varies.

BTW, I throw any seeds that are smaller than the average size in a given batch coming out of the fermentation.
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Old September 24, 2015   #4
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...
BTW, I throw any seeds that are smaller than the average size in a given batch coming out of the fermentation.
Me too. Or if I don't catch them then, I try to toss them when I'm packing seeds to share.l
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Old September 24, 2015   #5
Salsacharley
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I am currently saving seeds from Napa Giant and I was shocked at how small they are from 2 different fruits (compared with the WBF seeds the plant came from) collected 3 weeks apart. I'm testing their germination now to see if they will be worth keeping.
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Old September 25, 2015   #6
charline
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JLJ , the seeds were fully ripe from the second fruit, color the same like the others

ContainerTed thank you, thats what I was thinking too and thats what worried me

I saved the seeds separately and if I redo the variety I will plant seeds from both and I will see what happens. And I will not share seeds of this variety until I am not sure about it.
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Old September 25, 2015   #7
charline
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Originally Posted by Salsacharley View Post
I am currently saving seeds from Napa Giant and I was shocked at how small they are from 2 different fruits (compared with the WBF seeds the plant came from) collected 3 weeks apart. I'm testing their germination now to see if they will be worth keeping.
I think in different years and different growing places the size can vary.
If I have time I will compare the seeds from this year to the seeds from last year and the seeds I got from seeds exchanges. That will be interesting. ( not at the moment, I am still in the garden, but on a long winter evening...)
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Old September 25, 2015   #8
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I save seeds by fermenting and doing so I discard a lot of poor/bad seeds in the final washing process.
I pour the ferment into a a big tall glass, fill w/ tap water, stir.
Dump half of it that is flowing.
Fill with water again and repeat several times until just the good heavy seeds settle down quickly. The floaters are discarded.
What I get is good quality stuff. Though I have not done a germination test but I don't worry about bad seeds this way. Then I always sow 3 times as many seeds that I need to grow.

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Old September 25, 2015   #9
Salsacharley
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Update: I got 5 sprouts out of 5 seeds sown on my mini Napa Giant seeds in only 3 days.
I'm going to keep those seeds, and use a couple next year to compare their performance with the original WBF seeds.

Now I have my chronic problem of tossing perfectly good seedlings. I just can't do it. I'm going to let them grow until they don't...either from frost or lack of light or whatever.
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Old September 25, 2015   #10
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Charline, I'm not sure how much the temperature varies in France, but I can tell you some results I've encountered here in Texas:

This past spring, I grew a cherry tomato variety called, "Pinky Blast". They grew healthy cherry tomatoes that had average size seeds. I saved seeds from them and planted again in Summer for a Fall crop. The plants look the same as the ones grown in Spring, but the tomato seeds are extremely small and not completely formed. (Seeds so small I had to take the cut tomato outside in the sunlight and look at it with reading glasses)

I think it is all due to our growing conditions. Summer in Texas is Hot (39+C/100+F) I think the heat is what caused the seeds to be almost non-existent.
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Old September 27, 2015   #11
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Salt, did you think the smaller, "not completely formed" seeds were not proper fertile, mature seeds? (I don't mean that the fruit wasn't mature, just that perhaps, for whatever reason, it didn't mature most of its seeds -- at least not by the time it was picked.)

I remember a few years ago when there was first talk of Indian Stripe Heart. There were photos of its "very tiny seeds" . . . at another location, not here. To me, those photos looked like mostly immature seeds, with a few mature ones among them, and I believe some of those who received those seeds thought the same. I don't know whether that was the source of the seeds for that variety that Carolyn had in her seed offer a few years ago -- but only a very few of us got even one plant out of those seeds.

So that's what I was thinking about the small seeds here -- that perhaps, for whatever reason, that "small seed tomato" Charline grew had mostly undeveloped seeds.

Seems to me that Charline's excellent idea about planting seeds from each tomato and comparing them should say something about whether, in this instance, the bigger seeds were more viable than the little ones, though.
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Old September 27, 2015   #12
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JLJ, I was thinking that they just didn't mature, so I left some ripe tomatoes on the vine for two weeks. I cut one open yesterday and the seeds never finished forming.
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