Dotson's Lebanese Heart

[carolyn137]

[QUOTE=Rajun Gardener;606145]Let me be as tactful as I can. With that said and I hope it's clear to everyone I'm just trying to understand how these problems keep happening. This is twice in one week the subject came up and we (the TV community) needs to find a way so this doesn't happen again.

How does Carolyn have the final say of naming rights when it has nothing to do with her. She's only the middle person in this transaction.

Is there something I'm missing or is it an understanding that once someone has something new and they send seeds to Carolyn that she has final say of what to name it with the grower?

*****

Absolutely not, seeds sent to me are usually already named,with few exceptions when I've been asked to help name a variety and I've posted about this before.

Why does the grower have any say on any thing except the description? I'm sure we get better descriptions of tomatoes here on TV than any one grower can provide because you get results across the country in different growing conditions.

Is it really that hard to get a new tomato to the public that Carolyn has to help, can't anyone list a new tomato on SSE? Why even go that route to begin with? Who gets paid when someone buys seeds from SSE? Is it the grower? Do all the sales go to SSE for management and storage of seeds?

*******
Of course not I don't have to help, I'm just one person who tries to help others introduce new varieties,etc. There are others as well who do the same thing as you've read in this thread,there are many who make seed offers at many places. Just look at all the seed offers made in the two seed subforums here at TV.And yes,one can list tomato varieties in the SSE Yearbook if they are listed members of SSE. From the Yearbook one pays the request price that the lister is asking and not all list the same request prices for their varieties and yes,that money goes back to the lister. If speaking about the SSE public catalog that SSE puts out,then yes,the money goes back to SSE. SSE used to print and itemize where their money is spent,but I haven't seen that in many years and I'm sure the money gets spent for overhead saleries ,storing seeds at SSE and Colorado,and whatever.

I really think it's common sense of who names the seeds and it shouldn't be a disagreement with the person who discovered it. It's not like your DR. gets a say in what to name your child and the nurse gets credit for being there helping.

******

I have 42 new varieties in my spread sheet from many countries and the US and Canada,and yes,they name the varieties they have offered to me.Same as anyone doing seed offers with new varieties.


As for your last paragraph,all I can say is that this thread and the other one is all about that,re what constitutes a new variety. You saw in the other thread,I think it was,or perhaps in a PM to me,is it a new variety if an original that's RL comes up PL,is it a new variety if the internode distances have changed,is it a new variety if it arose b/c of multiple mutations that happen at one time and a loss of such genes, is it a somatic mutation with a new fruit form,etc.Now that I think about it I think it was in the other thread that I posted about that.

Maybe I'm completely wrong and if I am then put this in the "Most Embarrassing Things You've Done" thread.

No, I wouldn't do that.

Carolyn,who hopes that at least most of what I wrote above helps clarify most of the questions you asked.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Rajun Gardener

Let me be as tactful as I can. With that said and I hope it's clear to everyone I'm just trying to understand how these problems keep happening. This is twice in one week the subject came up and we (the TV community) needs to find a way so this doesn't happen again.

How does Carolyn have the final say of naming rights when it has nothing to do with her. She's only the middle person in this transaction.

Is there something I'm missing or is it an understanding that once someone has something new and they send seeds to Carolyn that she has final say of what to name it with the grower?

Why does the grower have any say on any thing except the description? I'm sure we get better descriptions of tomatoes here on TV than any one grower can provide because you get results across the country in different growing conditions.

Is it really that hard to get a new tomato to the public that Carolyn has to help, can't anyone list a new tomato on SSE? Why even go that route to begin with? Who gets paid when someone buys seeds from SSE? Is it the grower? Do all the sales go to SSE for management and storage of seeds?


I really think it's common sense of who names the seeds and it shouldn't be a disagreement with the person who discovered it. It's not like your DR. gets a say in what to name your child and the nurse gets credit for being there helping.

Maybe I'm completely wrong and if I am then put this in the "Most Embarrassing Things You've Done" thread.

Hi Rajun Gardener,
I am a member of SSE. I will not be offering seeds of the heart shaped form of “Omar’s Lebanese” on SSE or to the general public anywhere. I am a member of SSE for several reasons. I am a member of SSE because it allows me to try tomatoes and peppers that are not readily available to the general public through commercial venues. It also allows me to give gift memberships to people in other counties who are unable to secure membership on their own.
The seeds I will be forwarding of the grow outs for Carolyn are only going to other growers in our grow out group and to Darin. The label I put on these seeds packs, “Ain’t nobody business but my own”. I don’t mean that in a mean way and may have to answer to Carolyn for my choice of words. I ain’t no deity and am far from perfect. Thanks for your input.
Dutch
P.S. Referring to:“Ain’t nobody business but my own”. I do not use illegal drugs or endorse their use.

[Rajun Gardener]

OK, a few more questions. You responded about naming rights.

Absolutely not, seeds sent to me are usually already named,with few exceptions when I've been asked to help name a variety and I've posted about this before.

Was the problem that it wasn't named when you received the seeds and then the name changed?

My question: Is it really that hard to get a new tomato to the public that Carolyn has to help, can't anyone list a new tomato on SSE? Why even go that route to begin with? Who gets paid when someone buys seeds from SSE? Is it the grower? Do all the sales go to SSE for management and storage of seeds?

And yes,one can list tomato varieties in the SSE Yearbook if they are listed members of SSE. From the Yearbook one pays the request price that the lister is asking and not all list the same request prices for their varieties and yes,that money goes back to the lister.

That right there was why I was asking who gets paid and why is the grower/lister is so involved in the naming rights and must get permission from you before making a decision. At the very least you can give the person who sent seeds in the naming rights.

I love TV and respect you Carolyn for all that you've done in the tomato world. The new varieties and knowledge from TV is amazing and I don't want this to continue to be a problem. We(TV) need to work together to continue to keep TV the one source of information on all things tomato.

[Rajun Gardener]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Hi Rajun Gardener,
I am a member of SSE. I will not be offering seeds of the heart shaped form of “Omar’s Lebanese” on SSE or to the general public anywhere. I am a member of SSE for several reasons. I am a member of SSE because it allows me to try tomatoes and peppers that are not readily available to the general public through commercial venues. It also allows me to give gift memberships to people in other counties who are unable to secure membership on their own.
The seeds I will be forwarding of the grow outs for Carolyn are only going to other growers in our grow out group and to Darin. The label I put on these seeds packs, “Ain’t nobody business but my own”. I don’t mean that in a mean way and may have to answer to Carolyn for my choice of words. I ain’t no deity and am far from perfect. Thanks for your input.
Dutch
P.S. Referring to:“Ain’t nobody business but my own”. I do not use illegal drugs or endorse their use.

I really think the thing that made SSE a money grab for me was last year when I wanted to grow TPS(true potato seeds). I wasn't gonna join just to buy seeds even when they weren't readily available. The good news is that through networking just like we do here with tomatoes I now have more than I can grow and have returned the favor. It's the same thing with a new super hot pepper, he who sells it first wins, after the second year everyone is trading.

I hope this all turns out well for those involved. I don't have a dog on this fight but it just seemed wrong to me.

Merry Christmas to everyone and Happy New Year!!!!

[carolyn137]

[QUOTE=Rajun Gardener;606180]OK, a few more questions. You responded about naming rights.

Absolutely not, seeds sent to me are usually already named,with few exceptions when I've been asked to help name a variety and I've posted about this before.

Was the problem that it wasn't named when you received the seeds and then the name changed?

Yes, I only help persons with varieties that haven't been named and ask me to help,I make suggestions as to what they might be called and the person makes the final choice and I posted this above also.

My question: Is it really that hard to get a new tomato to the public that Carolyn has to help, can't anyone list a new tomato on SSE? Why even go that route to begin with? Who gets paid when someone buys seeds from SSE? Is it the grower? Do all the sales go to SSE for management and storage of seeds?

I answered the above in my first response to you.

And yes,one can list tomato varieties in the SSE Yearbook if they are listed members of SSE. From the Yearbook one pays the request price that the lister is asking and not all list the same request prices for their varieties and yes,that money goes back to the lister.

That right there was why I was asking who gets paid and why is the grower/lister is so involved in the naming rights and must get permission from you before making a decision. At the very least you can give the person who sent seeds in the naming rights.

I don't understand what you are saying above since no one needs permission from me at all,I make suggestions before they even consider listing varieties,they chose what they want to name it. I am not involved.Period

I love TV and respect you Carolyn for all that you've done in the tomato world. The new varieties and knowledge from TV is amazing and I don't want this to continue to be a problem. We(TV) need to work together to continue to keep TV the one source of information on all things tomato.

Above, it will never be possible to have TV be the one source of info about tomatoes.Many here cross post at other sites and take info from here to those other message sites and the reverse also occurs as I well know since I also have posted at other sites myself but have stopped doing that except for idig , the sister site of TV that M also runs and owns where I'm the only Mod and one more site that just invited me back and just one other site where I rarely go but someone from TV alerted me to the problem that several were having problems getting into TV,I went and helped...

I've answered the same questions here now several times as well as in the other thread so I think it's time for others who are SSE listed members to start answering questions since perhaps they will do it better than I have.

Carolyn

[KarenO]

[QUOTE=Spartanburg123;606098]Thanks everyone! Dutch- I really appreciate your understanding on this, and for growing it out for seed. I am perfectly fine with an "aka", it's a great reminder of its heritage. Since you have by far the most experience with this tomato, please fill in any observations like disease tolerance, epidermal color, size, etc.
The possibility still exists that a stray seed made it into the Totally Tomatoes seed pack. I have been looking through all of the available heart varieties, but nothing appears to be a blunt heart with broad leaves. I will call them and discuss pronto!

You all have been much too kind- my sincere hope is that this cultivar pleases all who grow it!!

Darin[/QUOTE

I admire your positive spirit and your generosity.

[KarenO]

For anyone who is wondering, it costs 25 dollars a year for a paperless membership to the SSE which give you access to all members areas and benefits. You can see and participate in the members only seed exchange listings. It is not some exclusive club.
One tomato, one discoverer or breeder, one name chosen by that person. simple.
Anybody can grow out and save OP tomato seed including all of us here on tomatoville. I did not send my interesting tomato to have it claimed by someone else as the person who "introduced it" (which denotes no real contribution to the development or discovery of new varieties whatsoever). It was sent as a gift. As an opportunity to allow an interesting and unique tomato to be grown and for seed to be saved more widely in order that this tomato doesn't vanish when I do because as far as I know, nobody else is growing this tomato anymore. The story behind a tomato has value. The story needs to follow the gift.
My disappointment in this whole embarrassing mess stems from the way Darin's gift as well as my own gift and possibly that of many others along the way have been treated. There must be some greater motivation, some promise made to someone else, here or overseas that is motivating this stubborn refusal to call this tomato by it's name, given publicly and repeatedly by Darin.
Such tomatogate machinations are beyond my willingness to be a participant but I do hope that all who read this, who might have their own dear Granny's special tomato .are watching and learning.
There is one piece of advice I would give: Just grow it out yourself. you need no help. No "professional" seed producer
1000 seeds would be the product of about 4 or 5 big beefsteaks. It's no mysterious thing or grand accomplishment to collect your own OP seeds in any quantity you need.
It may have been in the past that you needed a network of private relationships with other seed collectors, even locally, in order to share a new or heirloom variety. Now we all have equal access to the internet and tomato and gardening forums worldwide. for free.
The times they are a changing and I for one am glad for the ability to document my own projects online and in social media in order that it would be difficult for anyone to take credit for my personal breeding projects. It is not my wish to be disrespectful to anyone's past or present accomplishments but any accomplishment that is made at someone else's expense is not an accomplishment at all.
Christmas blessings everyone,
KarenO

[ddsack]

Can we back up a bit to the facts of the origin. Darin found this tomato growing in with a batch of Omar's Lebanese. Although it appears to be a mutatation, without genetic testing there is no way to say 100% sure that it is not from a stray seed or a cross. We will have to grow out several more generations than just the one to be sure of stability. And even if it is stable, maybe that stray seed was from another nearly stable variety not yet out for release.

Without genetic testing or clear purposeful breeding documentation available for the one seed that produced this original variant plant - it turns out to be just an assumption from available visual evidence that it is related to Omar's Lebanese. But what if it isn't? If the original seeds came from a large seed production facility, whose to say what other breeding projects they were working on from which a stray seed could have contaminated the packaging process. So in that case, by insisting on tieing this tomato to Omar's Lebanese Heart, you're actually perpetuating a potentially false relationship.

Seems to me that Dotson's Lebanese Heart is a more acceptable name, because it takes a step back, retains the Lebanese Heart, without making the false claim that it is known to be bred from Omar's Lebanese Heart, which we will never know for sure.

Faelen's First Snow comes to mind. It was a variegated leaf tomato found in a tray of Cherokee Purple. Fruit turned out to be identical to Cherokee Purple. However, without a direct line of evidence of breeding, the person who discovered it did not call it Cherokee Purple Variegated (someone else did try to sell it as such, but that's another story) but rather renamed it so as to not to perpetuate a possible incorrect relationship.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by ddsack

Can we back up a bit to the facts of the origin. Darin found this tomato growing in with a batch of Omar's Lebanese. Although it appears to be a mutatation, without genetic testing there is no way to say 100% sure that it is not from a stray seed or a cross. We will have to grow out several more generations than just the one to be sure of stability. And even if it is stable, maybe that stray seed was from another nearly stable variety not yet out for release.

Without genetic testing or clear purposeful breeding documentation available for the one seed that produced this original variant plant - it turns out to be just an assumption from available visual evidence that it is related to Omar's Lebanese. But what if it isn't? If the original seeds came from a large seed production facility, whose to say what other breeding projects they were working on from which a stray seed could have contaminated the packaging process. So in that case, by insisting on tieing this tomato to Omar's Lebanese Heart, you're actually perpetuating a potentially false relationship.

.

That is what I have been thinking all along but refrained from commenting.
That is another reason, not relating it to OL is more appropriate . I would just name it DOTSON'S HEART.
jmo

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Spartanburg123

Thanks everyone! Dutch- I really appreciate your understanding on this, and for growing it out for seed. I am perfectly fine with an "aka", it's a great reminder of its heritage. Since you have by far the most experience with this tomato, please fill in any observations like disease tolerance, epidermal color, size, etc.
The possibility still exists that a stray seed made it into the Totally Tomatoes seed pack. I have been looking through all of the available heart varieties, but nothing appears to be a blunt heart with broad leaves. I will call them and discuss pronto!

You all have been much too kind- my sincere hope is that this cultivar pleases all who grow it!!

Darin

Darin, before I comment, let me make sure of what you are saying.

You bought a pack of Omar's Lebanese from Totally Tomatoes, that catalog is not near me right now to check that they were offering it, and it's possible that there was a stray seed in that pack that gave you your plant with blunt heart shaped fruit.

Yes?

There certainly is the possibility that a stray seed could give rise to something different

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Orange_Strawberry

But in your case the stray seed had possibly undergone a mutation,still OL, that resulted in heart shaped fruits.

Have I got that right? That certainly could be interesting. And I'll make my comment re Totally Tomatoes after you have time to answer.

Carolyn

[Spartanburg123]

Hi Carolyn-

What I'm saying is this: the blunt heart tomato that I grew from the same seed pack of Omar's Lebanese, and progeny that was grown out by Dutch, could have resulted from one of the following:

1. A stray seed from another variety at Totally Tomatoes made its way into my seed pack, or
2. The seed produced a plant that was a spontaneous mutation of the Omar's Lebanese genetic form.

I've been going through the seed catalog at Tomatoville looking for blunt hearts with these characteristics, but no luck yet. I plan on calling them.

Thanks

Darin

[paprika]

Hey Darin!

RE- Totally Tomatoes and possibility of a stray seed
FWIW
Just trying to be helpful and maybe help narrow down the possibilities--A few of us have been searching through the 2015-2017 TT catalogs for possible matches to what you and Dutch have described or shown in pictures, but so far have not found any likely matching candidates. We've eliminated possible matches by various traits--color, wispy, leaf type, etc. While none of this is definitive or exact or won't even address all the possibilities, it might prove helpful.

On the other hand, as catalogs do change, it might help us further if we knew the year on your pack of seeds to know what TT was offering that year.

And unfortunately on the 3rd hand<grin>, I tossed decades worth of all my catalogs pre 2015 to maintain "available space harmony" with my lovery wife! So if it was from 2014 or earlier, hopefully someone else will still have a copy.

[Spartanburg123]

Hey Paprika!

I'm in West Virginia at the moment gorging myself on Christmas cookies....but I purchased those seeds online in the Spring of 2015- so they were likely from the 2014/2015 offering. I will certainly take a picture when I get back to SC after the new year, and perhaps there is a lot # or something on the pack. I save everything!

Thanks!

Darin

[Spartanburg123]

[QUOTE=KarenO;606205]

Originally Posted by Spartanburg123

Thanks everyone! Dutch- I really appreciate your understanding on this, and for growing it out for seed. I am perfectly fine with an "aka", it's a great reminder of its heritage. Since you have by far the most experience with this tomato, please fill in any observations like disease tolerance, epidermal color, size, etc.
The possibility still exists that a stray seed made it into the Totally Tomatoes seed pack. I have been looking through all of the available heart varieties, but nothing appears to be a blunt heart with broad leaves. I will call them and discuss pronto!

You all have been much too kind- my sincere hope is that this cultivar pleases all who grow it!!

Darin[/QUOTE

I admire your positive spirit and your generosity.

Thank you Karen

[paprika]

Hey Darin !

Forget sending the seed pack picture, send some of those Christmas cookies instead! <grin>

Offsite myself so don't have 2015 catalog in front of me, but I'll give it go from poor memory anywho:

Anna Russian
Cuore Di Toro
German Red Strawberry
Giant Oxheart
Orange Oxheart
Orange Strawberry

And maybe 1 or 2 more. Anyone with a 2015 TT catalog handy?

Edit: Gotta go, heading into the Single Brother's House at Old Salem for my 44th Moravian Candle Tea---Good coffee, yummy Moravian Sugarcake, the aroma of handmade beeswax candles, and good fellowship and music! Later!