Early Tomato Varieties

[DonDuck]

When genetic changes occur in the garden, the changes are typically reported as detrimental. Is it reasonable to assume the odds of beneficial changes may occur at the same rate as detrimental changes? If genetic drift occurs due to environmental pressures, shouldn't the plants start producing earlier or more abundantly with greater resistance to insect and disease damage in adverse conditions? It would seem degradation may occur in perfect growing conditions while genetic improvement would occur in difficult growing conditions. In my simple way of thinking, organisms including tomatoes only have one purpose and that is to insure the future success of their species. If I was a tomato plant genetically inclined to improve the probability of species survival, I would produce seed bearing fruit as early and late as possible. Each fruit would be small, thorny, foul tasting, and as toxic as possible.

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by sjamesNorway

Black Krim, the only variety from your original post (1) that I've grown is Stupice, which was a disappointment taste-wise. Maybe this was due to "genetic drift", as discussed in this thread. The seeds were from an American company.

When I got few fruits from my outdoor plants last summer, I decided I would only grow plants outdoors with a reported dtm of less than 70, which have a reputation for cold-tolerance. The following are the compact varieties with this description on my grow list for 2018. All are new to me.

Yamal
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Yamal
or Sibirirskiy Skorospelyi
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/S...iy_Skorospelyi

Belyi Naliv
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Belyi_Naliv

Pearly Pink Orange
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Pearly_Pink_Orange

Lyana
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Lyana
Zolotoe Serdtse
Tatiana has little on this. My notes: Zolotoe Serdtse* ["Heart of Gold"] Bower, Newfoundland: “In my greenhouse, Zolotoe Serdtse was the perfect balance for me, between determinate and indeterminate, with continuous, really heavy production, good tasting fruit, and no need to prune suckers, but that's because I let it bush... Bright orange heart, very firm, huge producer…There are few varieties that continue to grow and set on cooler than 15 C days, Zolotoe Serdtse is the most tolerant I've seen of the early season days below 15.” Droopy leaves! Nikitovka: “Early variety. Determinate (bush) tomato, plant height 70-80 cm (28-32 in.). Orange, heart-shaped fruits, fleshy, sweet, weight up to 200 g (7 oz.).” 66 days (Nikitovkaseeds)



Steve

Zolotoe Serdtse is an absolute Keeper !

Belyi Naliv is great and adaptable ...I have also tried

Vzryv (Billed as an improved Belyi Naliv)

I found Belyi Naliv to be better for my outcomes.

[Black Krim]

come from the world of animal genetics. Where the next generation is thoughtfully selected to parent the next generations. It is a long process of collecting data on each individual animal, determine the most important traits that are currently important and apply thoughtfully to data to make choices.
The production and health traits reflect both the genetics and the environment the animal lives in. I have a flock of sheep I started 30 years ago. When I started the flock, I culled based on twinning and birthing ease. Resulted in fewer dystocia issues. I also didnt select any ram lambs with horns---now years later with a new ram, horn buds are showing up again.

My thought is that for seed saving, more plants to select from is better than only planting one every year , year after year. What is considered a good performing plant is dependent on the environment.

Cold tolerant varities need to have seeds selected every year for cold tolerance to keep that trait strong. That is where I had started to supect that Stupice had lost its juice compared to Stupicke d.....which was the origin of Stupice.

Humans select the breeding of purebred dogs; the breeds maintain very distinct characteristics. If dogs go feral, over time, many generations the dog all weight about 40 pounds, tan-gray coat, curled tail. I can look at my dogs or my horses and see all the subtle difference and why or why not that animal should be bred.Pups from the same litter are not clones; they look very similar but are not carbon copies. Selection goals, and selection. I figure the same applies to tomatoes.

[Black Krim]

THANK YOU EVERYONE!!!!!!1

Far more info than I dreamed, and love the useful discussions, too.

Clearly I will need to be patient. I will not be able to plant as early as I would like due to the crazy weather here. Cold wet springs are the norm here. Some years more rainy and colder. I am paying more attention to the daily highs and lows and a means to capture that data.

A green house can extend the growing season--dreaming of one.

Need to trial many of the suggested varieties. Cant see a way around that. ANd will likely to have a few varieties every year, as each year can be a bit different. Even the local apple grower says the same tree variety will have a different flavor one year to the next.

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by bower

Steve, I got Zolotoe Serdtse in one of Carolyn's seed offers. We've continued to grow it almost every year, including outdoors at my mother's. One thing I've noticed about this one, it is better to plant it out early than to hold it back because of weather. Does not like root confinement and it will delay setting until it gets those roots under it, for a later dtm.

@Black Bear, yeah the point made in the article is that important traits like yield could be selected for to improve the seed stock. This is where a commercial supplier or a farmer may have an advantage over a backyard gardener growing only one or two plants of the variety, as I've often done. The more plants you're growing, the easier it is to see variation (if it's there) and select the best.
OTOH there's nothing wrong with saving seed from a plant that did great in your garden! Why not.

On second thought I will skip this year on regrowing stupice from commercial seedlings or my own seeds of the "older" form of stupice described. To many projects are already in the stalls this year .....LOL.

But I did gather some exceptional Bloody butcher a few years ago that seemed different from before as well ... to be a little later but much Larger fruit and super prolific (source from local seedlings) ...they were so exceptional (and medium Large fruit) I thought something had to be wrong ...so I gathered the seed and marked it as "Mutant Bloody Butcher"... I had not grown the seeds .But may try them this year.

[RJGlew]

Originally Posted by DonDuck

I/ve thought about, but paid little attention to genetic drift. Out of habit, it has always made sense to save seed from the tomatoes which seem to have the most desirable qualities. As fact, is it possible to have genetic differences between seed harvested from two different tomatoes from the same plant assuming both blossoms self pollinated and no cross pollination occurred in either tomato? If genetic drift occurs, is it reasonable to assume the same degree of drift will have occurred or be reflected in both tomatoes?

Tomato self pollenation does not result in seed clones. Each seed in a tomato comes from the union of a unique ovule with a single pollen grain - aka fusion of gametes. So even with the ovule and pollen coming from from the same plant (as it does with self pollentation), each seed will end up with a slightly different genotypic composition. The process of stabilization reduces the difference, but does not eliminate it.

[bower]

Originally Posted by DonDuck

When genetic changes occur in the garden, the changes are typically reported as detrimental. Is it reasonable to assume the odds of beneficial changes may occur at the same rate as detrimental changes? If genetic drift occurs due to environmental pressures, shouldn't the plants start producing earlier or more abundantly with greater resistance to insect and disease damage in adverse conditions? It would seem degradation may occur in perfect growing conditions while genetic improvement would occur in difficult growing conditions. In my simple way of thinking, organisms including tomatoes only have one purpose and that is to insure the future success of their species. If I was a tomato plant genetically inclined to improve the probability of species survival, I would produce seed bearing fruit as early and late as possible. Each fruit would be small, thorny, foul tasting, and as toxic as possible.

I believe it is mutations, rather than genetic drift, that occurs due to environmental pressures. (The drift afaict applies only to recessive alleles that accumulate in plants that are not entirely homozygous = not really stable OP's). I agree I don't see why mutations should be detrimental, on the contrary. Drift is usually seen as negative, with recessive alleles that accumulate unintentionally due to small population size. But ultimately it's the selection that we do when we save seeds, that determines if a mutation or a drift, good or bad, is passed on.
You would not want to be small, thorny foul tasting and toxic, if your co-evolutionary success depended on animals that adore large smooth sweet and healthful fruit, and save their seeds, and plant and nurture their young every year. We are as important to tomatoes as they are to us.

[DonDuck]

Originally Posted by RJGlew

Tomato self pollenation does not result in seed clones. Each seed in a tomato comes from the union of a unique ovule with a single pollen grain - aka fusion of gametes. So even with the ovule and pollen coming from from the same plant (as it does with self pollentation), each seed will end up with a slightly different genotypic composition. The process of stabilization reduces the difference, but does not eliminate it.

I understand,. Thank you! I suppose it would be similar to identical twins having different finger prints.

[DonDuck]

Originally Posted by bower

I believe it is mutations, rather than genetic drift, that occurs due to environmental pressures. (The drift afaict applies only to recessive alleles that accumulate in plants that are not entirely homozygous = not really stable OP's). I agree I don't see why mutations should be detrimental, on the contrary. Drift is usually seen as negative, with recessive alleles that accumulate unintentionally due to small population size. But ultimately it's the selection that we do when we save seeds, that determines if a mutation or a drift, good or bad, is passed on.
You would not want to be small, thorny foul tasting and toxic, if your co-evolutionary success depended on animals that adore large smooth sweet and healthful fruit, and save their seeds, and plant and nurture their young every year. We are as important to tomatoes as they are to us.

[BigVanVader]

bower I read the paper you posted on this subject. I need to read it again but it seems that part of the issue is small populations to select from on typical farms? And with large enough numbers and proper selection all OPs improve over time?

[RJGlew]

Originally Posted by BigVanVader

bower I read the paper you posted on this subject. I need to read it again but it seems that part of the issue is small populations to select from on typical farms? And with large enough numbers and proper selection all OPs improve over time?

Interesting that only 1.6% of the OP plants exhibited superior characteristics worthy of being selected, while 98.4% of plants were either average or below average phenotypically. When I consider the NA Stupice I grew vs the properly selected seeds from the CZ sources it seems likely the NA selection processes have resulted in inferior plants, similar to the loss of quality seen in Turkish OPs varieties described in the article.

The author describes significant negative genetic drift occurring in just 20-30 years of seed saving without proper selection, making me wonder if `heirloom' OPs are heirloom in anything more than name. Consider home gardeners who grow a couple of plants and save seeds each year - very unlikely they will ever improve upon the baseline performance - much more likely they will drag down the quality of the variety.

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by RJGlew

Interesting that only 1.6% of the OP plants exhibited superior characteristics worthy of being selected, while 98.4% of plants were either average or below average phenotypically. When I consider the NA Stupice I grew vs the properly selected seeds from the CZ sources it seems likely the NA selection processes have resulted in inferior plants, similar to the loss of quality seen in Turkish OPs varieties described in the article.

The author describes significant negative genetic drift occurring in just 20-30 years of seed saving without proper selection, making me wonder if `heirloom' OPs are heirloom in anything more than name. Consider home gardeners who grow a couple of plants and save seeds each year - very unlikely they will ever improve upon the baseline performance - much more likely they will drag down the quality of the variety.

WOW !
This is another factor to consider if the OP seedlings available in a local area
are not as the same attributes ...they used to be .

So... does it also follow that ....Hybrids that depend on the OP "heirloom"

parents ...may also NOT be what they used to in original Golden age
of development and release to public. ?

[BigVanVader]

Originally Posted by RJGlew

Interesting that only 1.6% of the OP plants exhibited superior characteristics worthy of being selected, while 98.4% of plants were either average or below average phenotypically. When I consider the NA Stupice I grew vs the properly selected seeds from the CZ sources it seems likely the NA selection processes have resulted in inferior plants, similar to the loss of quality seen in Turkish OPs varieties described in the article.

The author describes significant negative genetic drift occurring in just 20-30 years of seed saving without proper selection, making me wonder if `heirloom' OPs are heirloom in anything more than name. Consider home gardeners who grow a couple of plants and save seeds each year - very unlikely they will ever improve upon the baseline performance - much more likely they will drag down the quality of the variety.

Yeah that is a little depressing since I cant realistically expect my selections through the years to do anything but make a lesser version

[RJGlew]

Originally Posted by BigVanVader

Yeah that is a little depressing since I cant realistically expect my selections through the years to do anything but make a lesser version

Grow 100 plants of a variety and each year on average, 1.6 of them will end up being superior for your selection process.

When I read Craig's "Epic Tomatoes" section on Alexander Livingston using fields of tomatoes to perform "single plant selection technique" in the 1880s it aligns with the paper bower referenced, and makes it pretty clear that small time growers cannot do much improvement via selection until/unless they by chance land on a positive mutation.

[bower]

Yeah given the stats the best we can hope for is that "average" is really pretty good. And don't save seeds from any plant that produced below average!