Member discussion regarding the methods, varieties and merits of growing tomatoes.
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
January 18, 2018 | #106 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Corinth, texas
Posts: 1,784
|
When genetic changes occur in the garden, the changes are typically reported as detrimental. Is it reasonable to assume the odds of beneficial changes may occur at the same rate as detrimental changes? If genetic drift occurs due to environmental pressures, shouldn't the plants start producing earlier or more abundantly with greater resistance to insect and disease damage in adverse conditions? It would seem degradation may occur in perfect growing conditions while genetic improvement would occur in difficult growing conditions. In my simple way of thinking, organisms including tomatoes only have one purpose and that is to insure the future success of their species. If I was a tomato plant genetically inclined to improve the probability of species survival, I would produce seed bearing fruit as early and late as possible. Each fruit would be small, thorny, foul tasting, and as toxic as possible.
Last edited by DonDuck; January 18, 2018 at 10:48 AM. |
January 18, 2018 | #107 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Nanaimo , BC
Posts: 961
|
Quote:
Belyi Naliv is great and adaptable ...I have also tried Vzryv (Billed as an improved Belyi Naliv) I found Belyi Naliv to be better for my outcomes.
__________________
So Many Tomatoes ...So Little Time ! |
|
January 18, 2018 | #108 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: New England
Posts: 661
|
come from the world of animal genetics. Where the next generation is thoughtfully selected to parent the next generations. It is a long process of collecting data on each individual animal, determine the most important traits that are currently important and apply thoughtfully to data to make choices.
The production and health traits reflect both the genetics and the environment the animal lives in. I have a flock of sheep I started 30 years ago. When I started the flock, I culled based on twinning and birthing ease. Resulted in fewer dystocia issues. I also didnt select any ram lambs with horns---now years later with a new ram, horn buds are showing up again. My thought is that for seed saving, more plants to select from is better than only planting one every year , year after year. What is considered a good performing plant is dependent on the environment. Cold tolerant varities need to have seeds selected every year for cold tolerance to keep that trait strong. That is where I had started to supect that Stupice had lost its juice compared to Stupicke d.....which was the origin of Stupice. Humans select the breeding of purebred dogs; the breeds maintain very distinct characteristics. If dogs go feral, over time, many generations the dog all weight about 40 pounds, tan-gray coat, curled tail. I can look at my dogs or my horses and see all the subtle difference and why or why not that animal should be bred.Pups from the same litter are not clones; they look very similar but are not carbon copies. Selection goals, and selection. I figure the same applies to tomatoes. |
January 18, 2018 | #109 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: New England
Posts: 661
|
THANK YOU EVERYONE!!!!!!1
Far more info than I dreamed, and love the useful discussions, too. Clearly I will need to be patient. I will not be able to plant as early as I would like due to the crazy weather here. Cold wet springs are the norm here. Some years more rainy and colder. I am paying more attention to the daily highs and lows and a means to capture that data. A green house can extend the growing season--dreaming of one. Need to trial many of the suggested varieties. Cant see a way around that. ANd will likely to have a few varieties every year, as each year can be a bit different. Even the local apple grower says the same tree variety will have a different flavor one year to the next. |
January 18, 2018 | #110 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Nanaimo , BC
Posts: 961
|
Quote:
But I did gather some exceptional Bloody butcher a few years ago that seemed different from before as well ... to be a little later but much Larger fruit and super prolific (source from local seedlings) ...they were so exceptional (and medium Large fruit) I thought something had to be wrong ...so I gathered the seed and marked it as "Mutant Bloody Butcher"... I had not grown the seeds .But may try them this year.
__________________
So Many Tomatoes ...So Little Time ! |
|
January 18, 2018 | #111 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 643
|
Quote:
Last edited by RJGlew; January 18, 2018 at 07:15 PM. |
|
January 18, 2018 | #112 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
|
Quote:
You would not want to be small, thorny foul tasting and toxic, if your co-evolutionary success depended on animals that adore large smooth sweet and healthful fruit, and save their seeds, and plant and nurture their young every year. We are as important to tomatoes as they are to us. |
|
January 18, 2018 | #113 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Corinth, texas
Posts: 1,784
|
Quote:
|
|
January 18, 2018 | #114 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Corinth, texas
Posts: 1,784
|
Quote:
|
|
January 18, 2018 | #115 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posts: 3,099
|
bower I read the paper you posted on this subject. I need to read it again but it seems that part of the issue is small populations to select from on typical farms? And with large enough numbers and proper selection all OPs improve over time?
|
January 19, 2018 | #116 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 643
|
Quote:
The author describes significant negative genetic drift occurring in just 20-30 years of seed saving without proper selection, making me wonder if `heirloom' OPs are heirloom in anything more than name. Consider home gardeners who grow a couple of plants and save seeds each year - very unlikely they will ever improve upon the baseline performance - much more likely they will drag down the quality of the variety. |
|
January 19, 2018 | #117 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Nanaimo , BC
Posts: 961
|
Quote:
This is another factor to consider if the OP seedlings available in a local area are not as the same attributes ...they used to be . So... does it also follow that ....Hybrids that depend on the OP "heirloom" parents ...may also NOT be what they used to in original Golden age of development and release to public. ?
__________________
So Many Tomatoes ...So Little Time ! |
|
January 19, 2018 | #118 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posts: 3,099
|
Quote:
|
|
January 19, 2018 | #119 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 643
|
Quote:
When I read Craig's "Epic Tomatoes" section on Alexander Livingston using fields of tomatoes to perform "single plant selection technique" in the 1880s it aligns with the paper bower referenced, and makes it pretty clear that small time growers cannot do much improvement via selection until/unless they by chance land on a positive mutation. |
|
January 19, 2018 | #120 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,793
|
Yeah given the stats the best we can hope for is that "average" is really pretty good. And don't save seeds from any plant that produced below average!
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|