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Old April 28, 2016   #16
carolyn137
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Originally Posted by imp View Post
If you want to know why the tomato is patented, read the patent. It's linked from the Wiki page or here:

https://www.google.com/patents/US761...ed=0CB0Q6AEwAA
Thanks so much imp (just noting that the words much and imp were initially together which made you a chimp, )only you would find the exact Patent that was assigned to Syngenta and as usual, the person who bred it initially is out, as to remuneration, as I see it.

But it was a lot to read so I was just skimming, as it were, so it deserves another read from me when I have time,and hopefully others will read it as well.

Fred,you would have a handle on this patenting issue since I know there was another thread where this was discussed and you were one of the main persons who posted and I'm sure you remember it as well.

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Old April 28, 2016   #17
Fred Hempel
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I don't have a great understanding of what can be patented, or not.

I do know that often it is not always as simple as a "variety" being patented. It may have more to do with the variety AND a set of growth conditions that are supposed to be important for growing the variety.

And as you have pointed out, people often apply for patents, and they are not granted. And that muddies the waters too -- with regard to what one finds when searching for patents.

What is clear is that there are no GMO tomatoes currently on the market. If there were, reputable Anti-GMO sources would make sure we know about them -- well before they are even available.
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Old April 28, 2016   #18
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Originally Posted by imp View Post
If you want to know why the tomato is patented, read the patent. It's linked from the Wiki page or here:

https://www.google.com/patents/US761...ed=0CB0Q6AEwAA
Thanks. I had that link and read most of the patent once, but I lost it.

It should be noted that the patent you linked to makes it apparent that they're thinking about GE tomatoes. (It talks about genetic engineering concepts a lot in it.) I'm not saying whether the current Kumato tomatoes are GE, though.

Someone is apparently about to release a purple GE tomato with a snapdragon gene, in Canada, in the near future, from what I've read:

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-25885756

I'm guessing this is the same tomato, but I might be wrong:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/20...nt-resveratrol

It's nice that they're doing something that isn't pesticide/herbicide-related for once. What I don't see on there is anything about testing it on humans before shipping it to market. Some people act like if one GMO is safe, then they're all safe, or if one is unsafe, than they're all unsafe (neither of which is logical). Hopefully they're testing it. Anyway, the fact that it's purple should make it easier to identify in regular grocery stores (even though purple tomatoes, though different, exist outside of grocery stores). Are snap dragons edible? Hopefully the tomato doesn't make some weird protein that'll take us 50+ years to get used to before we can digest it without consequences. One worry I have with this is that there might be such a thing as too much of a good thing, when it comes to anthocyanins and resveratrol, as well as that tofu chemical. I don't know, though. I guess we'll find out! (Or the Canadians will, for us.)

In 2008 there was a high anthocyanin GE tomato they were experimenting with. I don't know if it's the same one, but they did a small study on mice (not people) at that point, which seemed positive.

This link implies that there are two GE tomatoes they're working on (while I thought the other one was just talking about one with all of those nutrients at the same time): http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-a6708996.html

Anyway, I'm still worried about home gardeners trying to grow these when they come out, though. A lot of people won't realize they're not supposed to, and I doubt they'll have a sticker on them that says not to (they really should, if they're going to patent them and not grant that license to the public). I'm also worried about them being used in unauthorized breeding programs such that we might get illegal tomatoes without knowing they're illegal later on (same with Kumato and any other patented tomatoes out there, if the patent covers what home gardeners might do with them).

Last edited by shule1; April 28, 2016 at 07:25 PM.
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Old April 28, 2016   #19
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It should be noted that Kumato also seems to refer to multiple varieties or lines of tomatoes, rather than just a single variety. So, it's an ambiguous variety for gardeners. Three people might be growing Kumato, and all end up with different lines of tomatoes, is what I'm saying. But, I guess at least one of them is a hybrid (and people know that).

Last edited by shule1; April 28, 2016 at 07:26 PM.
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Old April 28, 2016   #20
Gardeneer
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Kumato seeds are/ lave never been promoted and sold to the public. It is only grown by the commercial GH growers. You cannot buy Kumato seeds anywhere.

Another Point: I believe that Kumato is an stablised hybrid ( OP) to facilitate large quantity of seed being collect and sold at low cost. I think there are other Hybrids in that category as well.

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Old April 28, 2016   #21
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The snap dragon gene inserted into the genome was indeed a GMO and was bred in England and I know there are some threads about it here at Tville and it's not related to Kumato at all. Another GMO one was bred in Italy , and it too was a small black cherry.

This is an excellent link about tomatoes and GMO's and there are no GMO ones currently being sold,they say, as did Fred.

http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/groce..._tomatoes.html

Here's the GMO one I remember best

https://www.google.com/search?q=fish..._AUIBigA&dpr=1

And here's one that I also remember b/c it was tested in NYS and I bought fruits,but I wouldn't call it a GMO since it was a tomato gene itself that was altered

http://agresearchmag.ars.usda.gov/1995/jul/tomatoes

Those darn tomatoes sat on my counter forever, and got wrinkled,but never rotted either. I started calling them the Summer Spring Winter Fall tomatoes.

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Old April 28, 2016   #22
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@Carolyn

That's pretty interesting. Thanks for the links.

I didn't mean to imply that the genetically engineered tomatoes I talked about were related to Kumato. I was just mentioning them because some people acted like no GE tomatoes would be on the produce market any time soon (although maybe they were thinking of seeds being sold to home gardeners). I should have quoted someone on that, and directed my response at the quote, I suppose, but I didn't want to make anyone feel like I was talking to them specifically.

@Gardeneer

I didn't mean to say or imply that Kumato was ever sold to home gardeners as seeds or plants for gardening purposes. It is, however, sold in supermarkets as fruit to everyone (and people are often tempted to grow the seeds, which is what I meant).

@the manufacturer

Another thing that comes to mind is that it's not clear from the packaging of the fruit what license they're giving people with the sale of the tomato (potentially even from a legal standpoint), although one can safely assume that all rights are reserved. It would be nice if they put a little blurb on the package (seeing as Kumato tomatoes come in packages). (I don't need to know personally—so there's no need to tell me what rights I have and don't have for Kumato tomatoes, but the consumers do need to know, because they're the ones who might want to plant them.)

Last edited by shule1; April 28, 2016 at 10:42 PM.
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Old April 28, 2016   #23
Fred Hempel
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I don't believe it is an OP. I saw lots of segregation of traits when I grew saved seed. And my experience was that under my normal field conditions, they were pretty much the worst tomatoes in the field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardeneer View Post
Kumato seeds are/ lave never been promoted and sold to the public. It is only grown by the commercial GH growers. You cannot buy Kumato seeds anywhere.

Another Point: I believe that Kumato is an stablised hybrid ( OP) to facilitate large quantity of seed being collect and sold at low cost. I think there are other Hybrids in that category as well.

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Old April 28, 2016   #24
Fred Hempel
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No one said anything about "any time soon". We just said that there aren't any on the market.

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Originally Posted by shule1 View Post
@Carolyn

That's pretty interesting. Thanks for the links.

I didn't mean to imply that the genetically engineered tomatoes I talked about were related to Kumato. I was just mentioning them because some people acted like no GE tomatoes would be on the produce market any time soon (although maybe they were thinking of seeds being sold to home gardeners). I should have quoted someone on that, and directed my response at the quote, I suppose, but I didn't want to make anyone feel like I was talking to them specifically.

@Gardeneer

I didn't mean to say or imply that Kumato was ever sold to home gardeners as seeds or plants for gardening purposes. It is, however, sold in supermarkets as fruit to everyone (and people are often tempted to grow the seeds, which is what I meant).

@the manufacturer

Another thing that comes to mind is that it's not clear from the packaging of the fruit what license they're giving people with the sale of the tomato (potentially even from a legal standpoint), although one can safely assume that all rights are reserved. It would be nice if they put a little blurb on the package (seeing as Kumato tomatoes come in packages). (I don't need to know personally—so there's no need to tell me what rights I have and don't have for Kumato tomatoes, but the consumers do need to know, because they're the ones who might want to plant them.)
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Old April 29, 2016   #25
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@Fred

Sorry. I just got the impression that you thought none were already in the works because of your second sentence here:

> What is clear is that there are no GMO tomatoes currently on the market. If there were, reputable Anti-GMO sources would make sure we know about them -- well before they are even available.

But you're right. Anti-GMO companies have ranted about at least the 2008 tomato (if not the others, too), but they didn't get enough press for me to have heard much about them without trying to find out about it on my own. They probably have more reason to focus on GMOs related to pesticides for the present, as well as those that can cross-pollinate things miles away.
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Old April 29, 2016   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Hempel View Post
It is a F1 hybrid called Kumato, from Syngenta.

If you save seed you will see quite a bit of segregation for taste and color.
That's strange. Most people can't see any segregation and grow it and save seed as they do with any OP variety. I don't think it is a real hybrid outside of papers. That wouldn't surprise me as you can make more money and protect them more. It wouldn't be the first case.
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Old April 29, 2016   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilex View Post
That's strange. Most people can't see any segregation and grow it and save seed as they do with any OP variety. I don't think it is a real hybrid outside of papers. That wouldn't surprise me as you can make more money and protect them more. It wouldn't be the first case.
I know quite a few people who have taken , eg, Brandy Boy to F10, without any segregation.
So there are two possibilities (in my mind).
1- The F1 was actually an OP (stabilized).
2- Somehow the F1 was born stable, genetically.

What you do in segregation is to find a genetically plant that is the same as F1. So there exist a probability that all seeds from the F1 might be what one wishes to find.
JMO

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Old April 29, 2016   #28
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Originally Posted by Keiththibodeaux View Post
Yes I ate them. Yes they are quite good. Yes I saved seeds. Yes I will plant them. And yes I will eat them too.

So, what do you reckon this variety is really?
Which grocery store did you buy them from?
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Old April 29, 2016   #29
Fred Hempel
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Most people I know have seen wide segregation, that starts with the color of the seedlings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ilex View Post
That's strange. Most people can't see any segregation and grow it and save seed as they do with any OP variety. I don't think it is a real hybrid outside of papers. That wouldn't surprise me as you can make more money and protect them more. It wouldn't be the first case.
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Old April 30, 2016   #30
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Most people I know have seen wide segregation, that starts with the color of the seedlings.
No doubt.
I was/am talking about the "Probability " and genetic inheritance.
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