Book and Seed Vault

[Granny]

Originally Posted by c8h10n4o2

http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_w...&p_print=FALSE

http://www.taxexemptworld.com/organi...asp?tn=1581936

http://yp.yahoo.com/yp/Corvallis_OR/...y/8106973.html

I don't get the connection between the massage therapy links at yahoo and the other two. . . . . am I missing something?

[johnsonjrbm]

It may be because the address in the second link is the same as one of the massage business addresses...

[c8h10n4o2]

Yep. The address was the same. Looks like they are serious about banking seeds and books and such ... they might not be state of the art or high tech but it could be effective. It could also evolve. Looks kinda mom and pop from the searches i've done for background info but plenty of things start out with one or two people with just an idea.

I personally think a geographically dispersed, living seedbank works way better. The more people growing and producing,in different places, exchanging fresh seed the better the chance of survival for the species/varieties.

I guess i am not quite sure why people would think it is a scam. My take on volunteer efforts is if you dont believe in them then dont volunteer or gift them.

[johnsonjrbm]

Originally Posted by c8h10n4o2

I guess i am not quite sure why people would think it is a scam. My take on volunteer efforts is if you dont believe in them then dont volunteer or gift them.

Caffeine - I think that the lack of transparency on their website, unintentional or otherwise, has made people wary. It may simply be naivete on the part of the founders, but given the number of scams on the internet, one cannot rule out the possibly of deception. If they're on the up-and-up, perhaps they'll improve their website.

Bobby

[Granny]

Originally Posted by c8h10n4o2

I guess i am not quite sure why people would think it is a scam. My take on volunteer efforts is if you dont believe in them then dont volunteer or gift them.

I'll give you a list of why this has all the earmarks of an Internet scam, since I've spent some time teaching the subject:

1. The site lists no information about anyone of any kind associated with the effort other than Carole - and she is also the only person listed on any of the legal papers, all of which are required to be publicly available. She is specifically not listed as an officer of the charitable organization or a member of the BoD, but only the contact agent. Contact agents are only people who have agreed to accept legal notices on behalf of a business, not necessarily the owners of a business.

2. They claim to have a Board of Directors, but give no information about any of these individuals, not even so much as their names.

3. They currently have "plans" for storage, but no actual storage for anything.

4. They take funds through PayPal and you have to go directly to PayPal to transfer funds. Valid businesses and charities accept funds through their own business accounts.

5. Their contact form does not list any of the officers of the "charitable" organization, no names of individuals and does NOT list a phone number. NEVER, ever do business with an unknown organization of any kind on the web that does not list a valid number on the website.

6. This is a new "charity" - less than a year old, registered last March 14. No track record.

7. The single phone number associated with the charity tracks to a massage parlor rather than the charity. A real charity could certainly afford the few dollars a month for a second, separate phone line at the massage parlor.

My take on volunteer efforts is that when you are going to claim to be a valid charity and accept all the tax breaks and so on that go with that, then cross your t's and dot your i's before you go out asking for $$$$$.

[ZZTOPSOIL]

Well Albany, Oregon is Only 15 Miles Away from Us Here at OSU.
I am Going to Try to do Some Investigating Now.
I Have Never Heard of this Organization or the Group.

[cdntomato]

Granny, I was originally looking at the actual mechanics of the 'business', the preservation of seeds and of books. Both of which I found suspect, especially the latter for which I have extensive training and experience. But you've taken this query to a whole new and quite meaningful level based on your expertise. Thank you. These insights are very welcome and I for one appreciate that you've shared them.

Bobby, I agree. The transparency issue is key.

Jennifer

[johnsonjrbm]

Wow, Granny. That systematic analysis really backs naivete into a tight corner...

[Tom Wagner]

This is a hot topic!

By doing a bit of research, searching the Internet in some rather odd ways, I feel that I must come to the defense of the goals of the Book and Seed Vault. The goals first:

The storage of civilization’s knowledge in book, disc or recorded version; properly archived for long-term vault containment;
Primary emphasis is given to educational materials K through PhD
Additionally for the long-term storage of a representative collection of open-pollinated seeds encompassing vegetable, grain, fruit and berry;
Additionally for the long-term storage of medicinal seeds
Additionally a library of classics, how-to-books and information in book, CD or DVD;
Said archiving is to provide for knowledge, food and medicinal plants in the event of a national catastrophe
All donations will eventually be housed in a hardened-concrete vault that is in the planning stages
Thereby safeguarding and ensuring the educational knowledge of today’s civilization and safe foodstuffs for tomorrow’s civilization.

After reading the comments on this forum, I felt that if I could answer just some of the questions and concerns of the various messages; misinformation could be avoided and a bit of graciousness conferred.

What I have learned:

• Carole Johnson is not a board member as she specifically asked not to be one
• Former CEO of three corporations
• Served on 33 non-profit boards
• Two commission appointments by the governors
• Chose to be at "arm's length" for the "purity: of the goal.
• Not a paid agent
• 541-928-5011 and email address: cj@proaxis.com.

Board of Directors:

• David G. Brown
  
• Janice Brown
  
• Larry Johnson
  
• Cynthia Coleman
  
• Jill Weygandt
• Dr. Patrick Hart

Questions raised:

Storage: down-to-earth baby steps. When additional freezer space is required a freezer will be purchased. Currently there is one freezer available.

Carole has paid for all expenses out of her retirement income


Non-profits have their own checking account and banking account. Willamette Community Bank in Albany

Web Page went up in June. The laws governing a 501(C)(3) are very specific as to responsibilities and penalties

The professional network is to create the appropriate storage for the vaults, and the books and seeds will not be stored in the same tower

"The single phone number tracks to a massage" business. Explained in Board of Directors background, Larry Johnson is the husband of Carole.

Carole’s income (retired) is limited--putting in another telephone would be too expensive for her.

The books currently listed on the BookandSeedVault are the personal property of Carole Johnson.

.The Board of Directors acknowledging that these books have not yet been donated to the BookandSeedVault has signed a contract. Carole has promised to donate all the books once an equal amount has been donated as to their value. With 2200 books offered by her, she hopes that the importance of the book values will be ascertained, then she will release them.
To release them now would put her lifelong library in jeopardy of being taken over by another non-profit should the BookandSeedVault not materialize. If she is the only one interested in this topic then she’d prefer to keep her books and build her own vault.

Some background of Carole Johnson

• Owner—2002 The Flower Farm
• Owner—1993 Getting It Write
• Director of Public Relations—1987 Colwell Chiropractic Office
• Managing Editor—1986 Gable & Gray
• Accountant and Director of Traffic—1980 KCMX AM & FM
• General Manager—1976 Fivecoat, With & Dunn
• Administrator and Therapist—1971 SW Community Mental Health
• Director of Personnel—1969 Columbia National Insurance
• General Manager—1967 Northwest Professional Plaza
• Ohio State University: Business Administration andPsychology 1974

Volunteered:


Emergency Food Bank
Board of Directors, President: 360-member Rogue Valley Friendship Club
Board of Directors: Community Action Team for Youth
Board of Directors: Ashland Community Gardens
Board of Directors, Volunteer: Ohio State’s Switchboard
Board of Directors, Treasurer: Administrative Management Society
More but too numerous to list


After looking over her bio, her work history, and her goals with the Book and Seed Vault webpage, I conclude that she deserves some benefit of the doubt. Her goal is lofty. Her procedures to implement the goal are commendable. Her website leads one to assume that this is a fully realized enterprise. It is not. She is in the infancy of this program and is willing to donate her books to the program as long as the program matures. It takes time to get a project like this off the ground, but after doing more research on Carole Johnson than I care to admit, I think that a few well placed contributions of seed and "survival" books could only help this organization and others like it succeed. It will take a lot of money to properly "fund" the activities and building the ultimate structures.

I tip my hat the BookandSeedVault on its premise, but it takes a promise for that to work.

Tom Wagner

[Granny]

Originally Posted by Tom Wagner

This is a hot topic!

. . . . . .(snip)

I tip my hat the BookandSeedVault on its premise, but it takes a promise for that to work.

Tom Wagner

Tom, I do not know how or where you came up with the information that you did (other than perhaps directly from Carole herself), but certainly Carole seems to have been around the block in a number of fields long enough to realize that transparency is key when one is asking the public to fund something in this manner.

If she wants to be judged as a legitimate charity rather than a fly-by-night scam then it would certainly behoove her to insure that first and foremost her website conforms with the standards long known as "best practice" in online consumer transactions. Among other things, no matter what her husband's involvement in the project might be or what his occupation might be, there is absolutely NO excuse for not acquiring a phone number specific to the charity. This is a matter of only a few dollars a month. Instead, this particular website is a near-perfect example of almost everything that we have been warning consumers about for more than a decade when it comes to internet financial transactions.

From a internet development and marketing point of view, it does not matter if her site has been online one day or one decade, it should not be online - period - until it is up to standard.

Anyone can say anything and claim anything on a website while seeking your money - and they do. While Carole's goals may be lofty, I see nothing in her background of any sort that would lead me to believe that she has the kind of expertise necessary for a project of this magnitude and I see nothing on her website that leads me to believe that anyone associated with her project does either. (But then we don't know from her website who those folks are, do we?)

I do completely understand her reluctance to donate her life-long book collection to a project that might never get off the ground. I would be extremely reluctant to donate a $5 bill to this project myself. For all of the reasons that I outlined above, this looks like a fairly typical internet scam - however lofty Carole's goals & good her intentions might be. You know what they say about ducks.

[Tom Wagner]

My attempt for fairness drove my collection of data as I could assemble it from several sources. My further attempt to address the matter from facts were not to persuade anyone to invest or agree with the charity.

Since no donations, no seed, no books, have been charitably attached to the BookandSeedVault to date, I would deduce that the buyer/donater beware.

The way I see it, if her dream is just a dream, let it be that!

If I helped to clarify some of the issues so that some minds are changed here, great! If you feel that Carole needs to be informed of transparency issues, email her! From what I picked up, she could use some structured advice.

Tom Wagner

[Granny]

Originally Posted by Tom Wagner

My attempt for fairness drove my collection of data as I could assemble it from several sources. My further attempt to address the matter from facts were not to persuade anyone to invest or agree with the charity.

Since no donations, no seed, no books, have been charitably attached to the BookandSeedVault to date, I would deduce that the buyer/donater beware.

The way I see it, if her dream is just a dream, let it be that!

If I helped to clarify some of the issues so that some minds are changed here, great! If you feel that Carole needs to be informed of transparency issues, email her! From what I picked up, she could use some structured advice.

Tom Wagner

Don't get me wrong, Tom - I do admire your desire to be gracious and fair to someone with a dream much in line with what most of us believe. I certainly did not mean to criticize you.

When it comes to doing business on the internet, though, I am not gracious in the least. I am an old-school hard a** that has worked long and hard to promote ethical standards and spent many hours teaching people how to keep from being scammed. I follow the "play by the rules or get off the field" philosophy. The internet is the modern version of the wild, wild West. There ain't no sheriff in town, so caution is the order of the day.

Re Carole needing to be informed of problems, she won't get that from me other than what she might come and read here. With that extensive bio and all those Boards of Directors she has been on, these are issues that she should be well aware of long since. And if she isn't, the person who built her website certainly should be aware of many of the issues I've raised.

[Soilsniffer]

I'm thinking the word 'scam' isn't appropriate for what Carole is attempting to do. I don't get the impression she's trying to rip anyone off.

I see Carole as an entrepreneur with an idea. She's presenting her idea on a website (a very nicely done one at that), and simply seeing if the donations start rolling in. She's in a defensive posture (i.e., she's keeping her book collection unless she gets enough donations from others), so she won't lose anything if her enterprise doesn't come to fruition. If the salary she desires is met, she'll continue with the venture.

Regardless of what the website implies, she's not going to do this gratis. If anyone disagrees with that, no sense reading further.

I'm reminded of a fund that Bill Cosby was once an officer of, that loaned money for certain individuals (read that: white males need not apply) to get a new business off the ground. He discussed (on Phil Donahue's old show, or somesuch) one applicant who requested a loan of $75K: $25K for rent and supplies, and $50K for the applicant's first year salary. Cosby used that example to state that's not how things are done ... but it appears to me that's what Carole's attempting to do. She surely hopes her project will take off ... but she's not going to lose anything if the venture doesn't work.

Maybe the not-for-profit route is a smart way to eke out a good living. I'll use SSE as an example. Kent made a hefty salary, had hundreds of acres of land that he didn't pay for that was essentially his, to do as he pleased (e.g., cattle!), as long as he didn't ruffle any feathers. He did ruffle, but that's another story. He sought (and received, big time) million$ in donations to acquire land, raised seed packet prices to acquire more (and once THAT land was purchased, kept the packet price the same, the extra money now to be used for 'other projects', whatever on earth that means), and -- here's the kicker -- free labor! Thousands of volunteers working toward the SSE mission.

SSE looks to me as a perfectly run business, and because of its mission gets to be classified as not-for-profit, which puts a different connotation in one's mind. I know many folks think Kent was just another volunteer, toiling for the good of the land and humanity as a whole. His work was certainly noble, but dude was compensated out the yin-yang for his efforts. I see *that* as Carole's motivation for her startup. If it makes her wallet fat, great. If not, she'll just stay retired.

Oh -- the phone # ringing to a massage parlor?? Amazing. Too funny. That's another example of her defensive position, not even springing for a dedicated cell phone to at least collect voicemail messages. She's not going to lose money with this no matter what. Her risk = her investment = 0. A REAL bad way to start a business, as well as a bad impression.

Jay

[Granny]

Originally Posted by Soilsniffer

I'm thinking the word 'scam' isn't appropriate for what Carole is attempting to do. I don't get the impression she's trying to rip anyone off.

Please note that I did not specifically say that she was trying to rip anyone off. What I said was that there are certain, well-defined (long since) hallmarks of an internet scam and that Carole's site fits the bill to a T. It is not for me to judge her heart - only her website. Many (or maybe even most) websites that are known to be scam sites are very "nice" - that is the stock in trade, to trick people into believing that the site owners are on the up and up.

Maybe the not-for-profit route is a smart way to eke out a good living.

Maybe it is. I am reminded of the woman who was head of the American Red Cross on 911, the same American Red Cross that went to great lengths to scam off more than half of the funds donated by people specifically to the victims of 911 for other Red Cross projects. At the time, she was making a cool half-million bucks a year ($450K to be exact), more than the President of the United States. Her previous job? Working for the Public Health Service, who pays their top docs something on the order of $150K. Meanwhile, most of the "real work" that the public donates money to the Red Cross to support is done by volunteers.

To me, those in charge of a "charity" should not be allowed to make a gravy train out of it. Something is drastically wrong when 80 or 90% of the funds a "charity" receives go to salaries, etc.

[Soilsniffer]

A week ago, I sent someone (Carole? Who knows?) an email, via the Book and Seed Vault 'Contact Us' page. I asked for the names of the folks in charge, and why the impression of secrecy. Wasn't rude, just to the point. Well, I did close the note: 'Sincerely, Jay (but for this website, call me Mr. X)' if that's rude, so be it. Per the website: "We normally reply to your email with 24 hours if your email is submitted during a normal business day. " No reply.

There are a number of pictures of *bank* vaults on the website. Will a seed vault be built like a bank vault?

Finally, what's the point of this graphic on the website's intro page? Could this be Carole and Larry?

J