False Economy!

[tam91]

I'm really glad you all are ok.

[JackE]

We're okay - at least so far. :-) The wind picked-up this afternoon and it skipped the hastily-constructed firebreaks in a couple places but I think they contained it again.

There have been black rain clouds moving over us all day, loaded with moisture from the Gulf of Mexico, coming your way where it's not needed. My lake is low, the feeder creek is dry, and we'll soon be out of irrigation water - then we can watch all that hard work go up in dust! the only thing that can save our crops now is tropical weather off the Gulf (hopefully not TOO strong, but right now I wouldn't turn down a hurricane - bring it on!!)

Jack

PS - it's not "you all", it's "y'all" (one word) LOL

[tam91]

Yeah, yeah, I know about y'all - but I am a yankee of course

I sure hope the fire stays contained, and that you get some rain. I would gladly send you some of ours - if only!

[Colorado_west]

Jack, glad to hear the fire been more controlled. Hope you get some rain.

It has been trying to storm around here all day. May get some rain tonight. This morning was tax papers and getting copies and mailed. I think I got it all right. I mailed it.

I had to go the store for few things. I have been loosing wt since Thanksgiving. Trying to figure out what to snack on like the doctor said. I have put on a couple pounds since mid-March. Limted in what I can eat. Need 8 more pound and keep it on.

At the store I saw yellow tomatoes marked cherry tomatoes and they came from Mexico. Not cherry at all and bigger I think then any pingpongs. More like the size of stem tomatoes. More like size of early tomatoes. They had orange ones too. One I got no label and I preseume Mexico too. I got one of each for seed. Not knowing what they are, rather hybrid or not. Some maybe will come on okay. Yellow one could be more of a white one. $3.99 a pound. Normally I do ferment my tomato seeds. Not sure I will have enough of each of these. At that price a few seed will get me started on them.

These last years I have been saving tomato seed. I buy Early Girl and Better Boy. Main crop Better Boy. I have been growing batch of small fruited and long ones in color and some colored and variest sizes. Season is short here for long season ones. People did not care for colored really but small fruited in colors they would buy. We should have water till in Oct. Sure does cost now but can not grow anything here with out water.

The seed bill for my garden has added up. You save seed.?

[JackE]

Hi Lila-

No, I never save any vegetable seed because I only use hybrid varieties for the main project gardens. I am going to plant some heirloom green tomatoes next year, though - just for fun and our own use - and I will save seed from those, of course. We save some flower seeds too. But when it comes to serious business, it's all hybrids!

Modern hybrid vegetable varieties are just so incredibly superior that I wouldn't even think about planting any of the old OPs ever again for commercial production. The only exception is okra - Lousiana Green Velvet is still the best - but they're working on it.

Hybrid seed is expensive, but worth every penny. I have a couple hundred hybrid Better Boys in cages this year. I didn't know there was an OP version of Better Boy - I thought it was a hybridized version of the old Big Boy. But why would you want to save OP seeds anyway? They're dirt cheap to buy at the local feed store!

One example is yellow squash - MultiPik hybrid is unbelievable - huge yields, no disease problems, no green-streaking (precocious gene), compact plant, fruit are uniform, evenly-colored and attractive and extremely early (full crop in 40 days!) The idea of going back to those old OP squash seeds we used to buy at the feed store is horrifying to me.

Another one - Purple Top turnip OP - what a sorry plant plant compared to the new hybrid version, Royal Crown. Or Alamo hybrid turnip greens - fantasic, resistant to everything, gorgeous greens, unbelievable yields and - you won't believe this - you can can cut them flush at the ground and the roots will produce a whole new crop in 2 or 3 weeks!!
Flash hybrid collard is a bargain at $165 a pound - labor savings, huge yields, fast prodution, etc etc.

I can understand someone working with those old OPs as an interesting and challenging hobby, or based on philosophical grounds, but for commercial production they are pathetically inadequate.

Jack

[tam91]

Wow, well you ought to get some interesting responses to that.

As far as "incredibly superior" - I grew Better Boy etc. for years. Once I discovered heirloom tomatoes, their taste was so incredibly superior to Better Boy, etc., I cannot imagine growing hybrids ever again.

Until I met some heirloom growers, I too assumed that the hybrids must be better. But I believe now that I've learned that is pretty much marketing hype. Other than a couple exceptions that I do like (Brandy Boy and Sungold), the heirlooms/OPs are so much better, I will never grow hybrids again.

You need to get a good tasting sample of some true heirloom/OP tomatoes.

[JackE]

Believe me, I'm well aware that those tomatoes taste better - same with some of the old sweet corn cultivars. But, in our operation as in most commercial farming, taste is not our main priority. Now this depends on your market, of course - some market growers have a very sophisticated clientele who want these sorts of varieties and are willing to pay extra for them. In our market taste is quite a ways down the priority line. Appearance is numero uno for our market, followed by disease resistance, high yields, easy harvest and labor savings. Taste is close to last - if the produce tastes as good as WalMart we're okay. Normally our produce does indeed taste noticeably better, but it's not really that important to us. But let me EMPHASIZE this - if we had a clientele that appreciated such things, and were willing to compensate us for the extra effort to produce Brandywine-quality tomatoes, we would certainly grow them.

We make these decisions on a dollars and cents basis. We weigh all the variables and choose our cultivars to maximize our bottom line at the end of the year - not to please the sophisticated palates of our few well-educated benefactors. However, to be honest, we do grow some things especially for those folks who pay our bills - and If I succeed with my heirloom tomato project next year, I probably will give some of them to those supporters of our project who can afford and appreciate the "finer things in life." But our rank and file customer couldn't care less. The only quality standard that we have to meet is WalMart's produce department - if we surpass that, great - but that's all I have to achieve. I daresay that if the big veg growers down in the Rio Grande Valley and out in California, were honest they would likely say pretty much the same thing.

Y'all should be grateful for this attitude, because it creates a niche market for your upscale, organically-grown produce - you can get two or three times as much for your stuff as we do if you have the right people (ie, suburbanites LOL).

Jack

[Colorado_west]

tam91, wow is right.

Well, Jack, I understand one plants what will grow the best for you. Better Boy and Early Girl are both hybrids. I buy the seed for them. Here if the Curly Top Virus hits the hybrids seem to stand up a lot better. My first year I pulled a good 200 Better Boy out due to it. Took some of the Early Gril too but I was not wiped out. I had more tomatoes than I could sell. One year the Better Boy refused to ripen. Getting close to frost time too. Carolyn said to stress them. I know about with holding water. I stressed them and got some. But others said their tomatoes did not ripen. I talked with lady at seed house and she said sure not a tomato year. BUT to have tomatoes to sell I had other ones in and was picking and selling them. I think they were all O P's. Master Gardener here says you plant several kinds in case others do not make. Cannery use to grow tomatoes here by field full. Tomatoes grow here okay. I am not again hybrids. Lot tomatoes I grow are not. I had one person want tomatoes that were not hybrids. The question they ask is are they sprayed. No . The fertilizer does not matter from the farm store. Just no sprays .

BetterBoy was not from Big Boy. Big Boy is hybrid. From what Carolyn has posted Better Boy and Big Boy have one parent the same the other half another one.

Seed at the farm store here is packages and bulk potatoes and little bags of onion sets. Seed house seed they have is bulk and see they did get packages. They did not handle Better Boy. Would order for me and the Early Girl. Now they have others that will buy some. They do not buy bulk in it just few thousand seed.

I bought some tomatoes at the store small long ones called Flavortino or something like that. Was not eable. I have bought Kuri squash that was bitter and I have been told they must of been picked on the green side.

[JackE]

It's just like any other business, Lila. What you stock on the shelves is determined by your past experience with your customers. We are, frankly, because of the low income demographic here, in direct competition with WalMart. People don't choose our produce because it's better; they choose it because it's cheaper (basically free with a voluntary donation). Most important to us is appearance - it has to be attractive and look as nice as the vegs in WalMart produce dept - that's what they judge us by and that's the only standard we have to meet.

And, since our hybrid tomatoes ripen on the vine, they actually DO taste better. But that's just a bonus - I don't care how they taste (within reason of course LOL) My goal is a pretty, perfectly round, uniformly red tomato. That's what fills the donation can.

Jack

[tam91]

OK Jack, fair enough. For what you want, I guess those hybrids will work fine. I just can't get my itty bitty brain around that "doesn't matter how they taste" part

I guess "superior" depends upon which attributes you want to be superior.

[JackE]

LOL - well I qualified that remark with "within reason." LOL

"I guess "superior" depends upon which attributes you want to be superior." Absolutely -and that's true of everything, not just vegetables.

It would be nice if our tomatoes tasted like a Brandywine, but that's of no business importance to us. It's not what we do. That's a whole other kind of produce business and we're not involved with that.

A lot of our patronage is off the highway and that's all about an impressive and attractive display - taste is irrelevant (again, within reasonLOL). The name of the game is LOOKS. If the person is used to store tomatoes that have been ripened artificially with gas, she will be delighted if they taste even a little bit like a real tomato. It's a very low bar to cross.

Jack

[tam91]

Well it's always good if you don't have to jump too high!

You know, it's interesting - maybe it's because of my container growing, but most of my heirlooms have had nice shapes as well. But yes, they are all of those scary different colors.

Now to me - LOOKS is the heirlooms, and a mixed box of all the beautiful colors. Obviously, I'd be in the vast minority in your neighborhood.

[JackE]

Probably pretty close to a minority of one. LOL They've never seen any tomatoes like that and would be afraid of them. I personally have never tasted them either - but I'm going to plant some green ones next year. One of the members here sent me some seeds and I can't wait - but that has nothing to do with Gardeners for Jesus. I'm going to slice and serve them at a potluck. My wife says they won't eat them.

The other day, the guy who grows our corn was here and I happened to have your tomato photo on the monitor screen at the time. "What's THAT?", he asked. I explained it was a very fancy heirloom tomato and he made a hilarious (if somewhat boorish) comment - let's see...how I can state this in a delicate way?...........he compared it to biological waste that his veterinarian leaves behind after making steers of his male calves :-)

Jack

[tam91]

ROFL. Too too funny. No need to be delicate with me anyway, I'm married to a veterinarian. I still remember what happened to the, uh, biological waste when the vet saw to my horse. I believe it involved a cat. A very mean cat. Cat vs. vet - cat won.

Anyhow, back to tomatoes...

The one in my pic is a double blossom, that's why it's that size. That was a Black Krim - and it was delicious.

If you serve up those green ones, and no one eats them - you can use my line, which I used on any kids who said "I don't want to eat THAT" - I just told them "Great! More for ME!". Shocked little faces...

We're going to somehow have to get you a few heirlooms to taste, in addition to the green ones, that's all there is to it!

[JackE]

I've seen folks here list Homestead as an heirloom. That used to be our old standby here - my grandfather planted those. As I recall, it was just a plain-old round, red tomato, though. I'm interested in the origin of those oddly-shaped and multi-colored tomatoes. Maybe you could link me to a site where I can learn where they come from, etc. Are they "like"(as the kids say) something from french or italian cuisine? Somehow they just look "unamerican" LOL

It's blowing a gale out there - totally bizzare weather - hot, dry south wind gusting to 40 mph! That's what they have down along the river, around Laredo, not here!! I'm becoming a believer in the global warming theory - something very odd is going on.

I have a foot of water over the shut-off point on my pump. The pond is four surface acres, so that gives me 4 acre/feet of water for irrigation - EXCEPT for one huge variable in this hot dry weather - evaporation! I am losing an inch a day, so I've got 10 days, maybe two weeks at the most, before I have to shut-down the pump. In this sandy soil, everything will be dead within a few days. No rain in the forecast. I am not a happy camper.

Jack