Cotyledons falling off tomato seedlings

[cgantt]

This year I bought most of my seeds from Ferry Morris, due to lack of time and knowledge of better companies like Johnny's. I sowed 45 better boy hybrid, 28 early girl, and 34 brandywine. These are not all of the tomatoes I planted but are the only ones I am having problems with. The germination rate was very good, 40 better boys, 27 early girl and 28 brandywines germinated.

I started them in a 128 cell plug tray in a DIY seed starting mix that I got from a friend who works in a nursery. The plug tray was heated on a mat and had a 4' shop light 2 inches above the tray. I watered twice daily with a spray bottle and well water. The seedlings sprouted and once they reached about 3" I transplanted to 72 cell flats which were filled with Pro-Mix Ultimate Organic Mix.

The problem is that the cotyledons on about 40% of the seedlings have fallen off and the stem shrivels up and dies. Since transplanting to the 72 cell flats they have resided in my greenhouse which has had an average temp of 80f due to a space heater and a fan. This problem is unique to the Ferry Morris seeds. The ones I bought from Johnny's had almost a 100% germination rate and have their first sets of true leaves now.

Am I watering them too much, not enough, or is there something else at work here?

[FILMNET]

Possible shock changing dirt this early?

[b54red]

Sounds like you may have some damping off if the main stem is shriveling up.

[travis]

Perhaps irrigating with spray bottle is applying too much moisture to plant surfaces above soil line and keeping the potting mix too damp at the soil line. That would promote damping off.

Bottom watering, letting the water wick up from the bottom of the holding tray, is a much safer method of maintaining sufficient moisture. And when I say "sufficient moisture" I don't mean soppy wet starter mix, just enough to feel damp when you press your finger onto the peat and certainly not so much that water puddles in your fingerprint.

Bottom watering ensures even moisture through the potting mix while maintaining minimal moisture right at the soil line surface. It also promotes root growth down into the potting mix.

[cgantt]

Well the stems are not shriveling up until after the cotyledons fall off. I would say that when I water, it is just enough to dampen the soil. Maybe 4 short squirts per cell. This problem exist only on the seeds from Ferry Morris. The ones from Johnny's are doing great. I did notice this morning that the ones that survived are beginning to put on true leaves. So I should have about 60 total in the ground this year. Now I need to go out and transplant 128 cucumber seedlings, and about 500 pepper seedlings. Gotta get it all done today because I have a baseball game to attend with a lady friend tomorrow.

[travis]

Cotyledons shouldn't yellow, wither, or fall off the stem until two or more sets of true leaves are well along in development. If the cotyledons are discoloring or falling off before the first set of true leaves are even partially out of the meristem, as you seem to be saying, you've got a problem.

I've never had the problem you describe with Ferry-Morse seeds or with Johnny's seed.

Some seeds are treated and the chemical powder on the seed helps prevent damping off or seed rot in cool soil, but the package will include a warning that the seed is treated because the chemical is not safe to ingest or get into your eyes or mucus membranes.

What type of potting mix are you using? And is there some reason you oppose bottom watering your sprouts? Are you using any fertilizers or other things like growth inhibitors or iron supplements, etc.? Does the potting mix have some sort of moisture retention additive or material?

Could you post pictures of your problem so someone could say yes or no to damping off?

Enjoy your baseball date.

By the way, when you transplant cukes, melons, squash, and pumpkins, there's a high risk of dramatically reducing yields if you damage the roots. For this reason, it's more advisable to direct plant seeds when the garden soil is warm, especially for cukes and melons. However, if you have strong reasons to raise cukes as transplants, it's more advisable to plant the seed in large starting pots, like maybe 4" cubes or 12 - 16 ounce cups so the root mass can be transplanted without breaking the individual roots. They are not like tomatoes that thrive on ruptured root wads or broken tap roots.

[carolyn137]

Regardless of a seed source I can understand the seedlings dying if the cotyledons fall off b'c the cots are the only energy source the plant has until true leaves form. So I don't think it's damping off that you're seeing, it's seedling death due to loss of the cots.

What I can't understand is why only Ferry Morris seeds. And can I assume that you had more than one variety from FM, b'c I wasn't sure reading above?

Do you still have the original packs? Even if it said treated seeds, which is rare for tomato seeds, I can't see any antifungal treated seeds being toxic to the new seedlings b/c those antifungals aren't absorbed into the endosperm of the seed; the remain on the4 exterior of the seed. And that's pretty much what seeds are coated with in order to prevent rotting of seeds direct planted in cold soils.

There has to be something else missing here but I don'/t know what it might be at this point.

[travis]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

There has to be something else missing here but I don'/t know what it might be at this point.

Pictures, evidence, answers.

[cgantt]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Regardless of a seed source I can understand the seedlings dying if the cotyledons fall off b'c the cots are the only energy source the plant has until true leaves form. So I don't think it's damping off that you're seeing, it's seedling death due to loss of the cots.

What I can't understand is why only Ferry Morris seeds. And can I assume that you had more than one variety from FM, b'c I wasn't sure reading above?

Yes I planted 45 better boy hybrid, 28 early girl, and 34 brandywine. These are not all of the tomatoes I planted but are the only ones I am having problems with. The germination rate was very good, 40 better boys, 27 early girl and 28 brandywines germinated. I lost about 40% of them due to this issue. All of the seeds from Johnny's germinated at almost a 100% germination rate. I think 4 of the 60 or so I plated did not germinate. All that did are doing well and no signs of anything other than fast growth.

Do you still have the original packs? Even if it said treated seeds, which is rare for tomato seeds, I can't see any antifungal treated seeds being toxic to the new seedlings b/c those antifungals aren't absorbed into the endosperm of the seed; the remain on the4 exterior of the seed. And that's pretty much what seeds are coated with in order to prevent rotting of seeds direct planted in cold soils.

I do have the packs, and the betterboy seeds were coated and the other two varieties were not. They were germinated under lights and as I said in my previous post, there were no signs of disease, damage, or pest.

There has to be something else missing here but I don'/t know what it might be at this point.

I called a friend of mine who owns a nursery and after describing the problem to him, he could not think of anything either. He said they started well over 4k seeds this year and to the best of his knowledge none showed the problems I had. His seeds came from a mix of Johnny's, SSE, and a local source.

My replies are in red.

[cgantt]

Originally Posted by travis

Cotyledons shouldn't yellow, wither, or fall off the stem until two or more sets of true leaves are well along in development. If the cotyledons are discoloring or falling off before the first set of true leaves are even partially out of the meristem, as you seem to be saying, you've got a problem.

I've never had the problem you describe with Ferry-Morse seeds or with Johnny's seed.

The problems are only with the FM seeds.

Some seeds are treated and the chemical powder on the seed helps prevent damping off or seed rot in cool soil, but the package will include a warning that the seed is treated because the chemical is not safe to ingest or get into your eyes or mucus membranes.

What type of potting mix are you using? And is there some reason you oppose bottom watering your sprouts? Are you using any fertilizers or other things like growth inhibitors or iron supplements, etc.? Does the potting mix have some sort of moisture retention additive or material?

I am using Pro-Mix Ultimate Organic, no fertilizers and to my knowledge no moisture retention additives. I have no opposition to bottom watering, I was just taught to water with a squirt bottle the first few weeks of germination.

Could you post pictures of your problem so someone could say yes or no to damping off?

Unfortunatlely I do not have any photos of the issue. Let me see if I can better explain it. Seedlings were about 2"-2.5" high with a 4' shop light about 4" above them. Every day or so I would notice another set of Cotyledons would have fallen off the seedlings stem. It was if someone had taken a i knife and lopped them off the stem. No shriveling of the Cotyledons or any indication of disease or pest, no damage from air, no contact with anything other than the air in the room. The stem would then die as one would expect.

Enjoy your baseball date.

By the way, when you transplant cukes, melons, squash, and pumpkins, there's a high risk of dramatically reducing yields if you damage the roots. For this reason, it's more advisable to direct plant seeds when the garden soil is warm, especially for cukes and melons. However, if you have strong reasons to raise cukes as transplants, it's more advisable to plant the seed in large starting pots, like maybe 4" cubes or 12 - 16 ounce cups so the root mass can be transplanted without breaking the individual roots. They are not like tomatoes that thrive on ruptured root wads or broken tap roots.

I start all of my seeds in 128 cell plug trays and the transplant to 72 cell flat packs. The root balls are well developed in the plug trays before I transplant with minimal disturbance to the roots if any.

My replies are in red.

[cgantt]

I just reread over all of my post and it kinda seems I am blaming FM for these problems. I want to make a point that I am not. A great deal of the rest of my seeds were from Ferry Morris and I have had 0 issues and about a 90% germination rate from them. My cukes, squash, okra, peppers, lettuce, cabbage, radishes, greens, Carrots Brussels sprouts, and Kohlrabi are all growing fine.

[ireilly]

Maybe something missing or in one of the mixes? Unfortunately, you'll have to repeat the plantings on a smaller scale to know. Maybe just go forward from here....

40% is statistically significant for sure.

[Gobig_or_Gohome_toms]

Did not read the whole thread but one thing I did pick up on was the lights 4 inches above the plants, it should be more like 1-2 inches not saying that is the problem just an observation.

Craig

[travis]

It's beginning to sound like a pest rather than pestilence. Maybe some sort of six legged creature or a worm of some sort.

[dice]

I have had pill bugs chewing on seedlings before. They
damage the growing tips. They actually prefer rotting
vegetation to feed on, but if they are in a greenhouse
or indoors, tender young growing tips of seedlings will
do in a pinch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armadillidiidae

Others have mentioned earwigs producing similar damage
at times.

A bowl of wilted lettuce nearby might serve as a "trap crop"
for pillbugs (I never tried this, just a theory). Small, shallow
bowls of vegetable oil set around will drown earwigs.

One thing: do the cotyledons turn yellow before they drop?
(Normal cotyldons usually start to yellow before the seedling
drops them.)