Plant Selection

seaeagle · June 24, 2015

I read somewhere that any variety of Tomato or anything for that matter could be improved by 10% or more with simple plant selection.After all everyone saves seeds from their best plants.I believe that a lot of these so called strains are just older varieties improved through simple plant selection maybe over many many years.I remember reading an article about the Vinson Watts tomato, and I think that guy worked on improving that tomato for 50 years(doing this from memory so I may be a little off).I hate to use an example but I will anyway.Say some farmer improves a certain tomato variety over 20 or 30 years through simple plant selection, sells it to a nursery, a gardener goes in and buys it and it performs better than what they are used to seeing from that variety. Then you have a new strain, although it is really just the same tomato improved through simple plant selection.Any opinions on this

joseph · June 24, 2015

In my world view, tomato plants are not nearly as stable as people seem to think that they are... They get crossed up, and people fail to notice, then they reselect among hybrids instead of among inbreds. The whole heirloom preservation thing just makes my head spin. I know about the chaos that happens in my garden and seed room every day. I can't imagine even entertaining the possibility that varieties are stable, and that they can remain unchanged for 60 generations as they pass through the gardens of hundreds or thousands of different growers.

So I'd go one step further... If a farmer maintains a variety for 20 or 30 years, then I'd call it a separate variety, not a strain.

digsdirt · June 24, 2015

My question would be - define the term "improved". Improved how? Select for what? Otherwise it is just a claim that is easy to make and impossible to prove.

Improved taste? Now there is a purely subjective method of selection. Size of fruit? Plant height? Internode length? Number of fruit produced per plant or per acre? Skin thickness? Inclination toward splitting/cracking/zippering/catfacing/etc? How would even one person control all the contributing factors for even 2 years much less 20-30 years by merely selecting? They couldn't.

We have all grown various hybrids at one time or another that claim to be "improved" and even include the word in their strain name. How many times have those claims actually panned out for X number of gardeners in X different climates all growing the exact same improved variety in the same year? None.

The greater the number of variables in any hypothesis the more likely it is to be proven untrue.

Dave

bower · June 24, 2015

Even if you set aside or prevent cross pollination, there is a mutation rate, and there is gene expression in play in the particular environment too.

I have read here, on the forum, expert recommendations that you should grow out a number of plants of one variety to save seed from, not just one. If I remembered correctly, the recommendation was to save seed from several plants to conserve diversity within the variety, which is a little different from selecting and saving only from the best individual, although for sure any reasonable person would save seed from the best (several) of the lot.

Either way, it concerns me because since I joined TV I have so many varieties I want to grow and never enough space to grow more than one of each new to me, I can only pick the earliest and best looking seedling to suit my personal hopes for it. So I know my experience and also my seed quality is limited by that circumstance.

Then again every year is different so can you really evaluate the best performer overall, when a different one might do better in next year's weather conditions...

There's definitely something to the farmer who grows a variety for decades - but I would also expect that variety to be very selected for the specific environment of that farm. Tomatoes are very adaptive, I feel pretty confident about that.

seaeagle · June 25, 2015

Joesph, I agree with you, the heirloom thing boggles my mind too.Just reading these forums, you can come to the conclusion that it is hard to keep a tomato stable even if seeds are saved with bagging or isolation. I see terms like genetic drift, mutations and all and then you have all the seed sharing and cross pollination and mislabeling and so on.Good point on what you said, " If a farmer maintains a variety for 20 or 30 years, then I'd call it a separate variety, not a strain." I agree

Great points digsdirt, usually even when you improve one thing such as disease resistance usually taste will suffer, so I also am skeptical of the word "improved"

Bower said "I have read here, on the forum, expert recommendations that you should grow out a number of plants of one variety to save seed from, not just one. If I remembered correctly, the recommendation was to save seed from several plants to conserve diversity within the variety, which is a little different from selecting and saving only from the best individual, although for sure any reasonable person would save seed from the best (several) of the lot."

That is interesting I never thought of that, although with collard greens I know you are supposed to save seed from at least 20 plants I think, I can't remember the exact reason.But what you said makes sense.Wish I could find that thread, sounds interesting

Thanks for the opinions, it is an interesting subject to me

AlittleSalt · June 25, 2015

I no longer use the term, "Heirloom". To me, it's either OP or not. We are saving seeds from tomatoes that taste good to us for us to grow in the future. We are also saving seeds from varieties that I have read that other people really like so that I can share them in seed swaps.

Plant Selection. I only save seeds from ripe tomatoes that are growing on healthy looking plants. I ferment the seeds to help reduce the chances of spreading diseases that might possibly be there.

The most important thing to me is taste - that's why I'm growing them.

June 24, 2015	#1
seaeagle Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: virginia Posts: 733	Plant Selection I read somewhere that any variety of Tomato or anything for that matter could be improved by 10% or more with simple plant selection.After all everyone saves seeds from their best plants.I believe that a lot of these so called strains are just older varieties improved through simple plant selection maybe over many many years.I remember reading an article about the Vinson Watts tomato, and I think that guy worked on improving that tomato for 50 years(doing this from memory so I may be a little off).I hate to use an example but I will anyway.Say some farmer improves a certain tomato variety over 20 or 30 years through simple plant selection, sells it to a nursery, a gardener goes in and buys it and it performs better than what they are used to seeing from that variety. Then you have a new strain, although it is really just the same tomato improved through simple plant selection.Any opinions on this Last edited by seaeagle; June 24, 2015 at 02:34 PM.

June 24, 2015	#3
digsdirt Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: No.Central Arkansas - 6b/7a Posts: 179	My question would be - define the term "improved". Improved how? Select for what? Otherwise it is just a claim that is easy to make and impossible to prove. Improved taste? Now there is a purely subjective method of selection. Size of fruit? Plant height? Internode length? Number of fruit produced per plant or per acre? Skin thickness? Inclination toward splitting/cracking/zippering/catfacing/etc? How would even one person control all the contributing factors for even 2 years much less 20-30 years by merely selecting? They couldn't. We have all grown various hybrids at one time or another that claim to be "improved" and even include the word in their strain name. How many times have those claims actually panned out for X number of gardeners in X different climates all growing the exact same improved variety in the same year? None. The greater the number of variables in any hypothesis the more likely it is to be proven untrue. Dave __________________ Dave

June 24, 2015	#2
joseph Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake Posts: 1,244	In my world view, tomato plants are not nearly as stable as people seem to think that they are... They get crossed up, and people fail to notice, then they reselect among hybrids instead of among inbreds. The whole heirloom preservation thing just makes my head spin. I know about the chaos that happens in my garden and seed room every day. I can't imagine even entertaining the possibility that varieties are stable, and that they can remain unchanged for 60 generations as they pass through the gardens of hundreds or thousands of different growers. So I'd go one step further... If a farmer maintains a variety for 20 or 30 years, then I'd call it a separate variety, not a strain.

June 24, 2015	#4
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,793	Even if you set aside or prevent cross pollination, there is a mutation rate, and there is gene expression in play in the particular environment too. I have read here, on the forum, expert recommendations that you should grow out a number of plants of one variety to save seed from, not just one. If I remembered correctly, the recommendation was to save seed from several plants to conserve diversity within the variety, which is a little different from selecting and saving only from the best individual, although for sure any reasonable person would save seed from the best (several) of the lot. Either way, it concerns me because since I joined TV I have so many varieties I want to grow and never enough space to grow more than one of each new to me, I can only pick the earliest and best looking seedling to suit my personal hopes for it. So I know my experience and also my seed quality is limited by that circumstance. Then again every year is different so can you really evaluate the best performer overall, when a different one might do better in next year's weather conditions... There's definitely something to the farmer who grows a variety for decades - but I would also expect that variety to be very selected for the specific environment of that farm. Tomatoes are very adaptive, I feel pretty confident about that.

June 25, 2015	#5
seaeagle Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: virginia Posts: 733	Joesph, I agree with you, the heirloom thing boggles my mind too.Just reading these forums, you can come to the conclusion that it is hard to keep a tomato stable even if seeds are saved with bagging or isolation. I see terms like genetic drift, mutations and all and then you have all the seed sharing and cross pollination and mislabeling and so on.Good point on what you said, " If a farmer maintains a variety for 20 or 30 years, then I'd call it a separate variety, not a strain." I agree Great points digsdirt, usually even when you improve one thing such as disease resistance usually taste will suffer, so I also am skeptical of the word "improved" Bower said "I have read here, on the forum, expert recommendations that you should grow out a number of plants of one variety to save seed from, not just one. If I remembered correctly, the recommendation was to save seed from several plants to conserve diversity within the variety, which is a little different from selecting and saving only from the best individual, although for sure any reasonable person would save seed from the best (several) of the lot." That is interesting I never thought of that, although with collard greens I know you are supposed to save seed from at least 20 plants I think, I can't remember the exact reason.But what you said makes sense.Wish I could find that thread, sounds interesting Thanks for the opinions, it is an interesting subject to me

June 25, 2015	#6
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	I no longer use the term, "Heirloom". To me, it's either OP or not. We are saving seeds from tomatoes that taste good to us for us to grow in the future. We are also saving seeds from varieties that I have read that other people really like so that I can share them in seed swaps. Plant Selection. I only save seeds from ripe tomatoes that are growing on healthy looking plants. I ferment the seeds to help reduce the chances of spreading diseases that might possibly be there. The most important thing to me is taste - that's why I'm growing them.