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Old March 19, 2012   #16
carolyn137
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If you've been following farming news or the genetically modified food debate, you know that glyphosphate-tolerant seeds are now available -- you can buy genetically modified corn, soybeans, etc. that are immune to glyphosphate. These plants produce an enzyme that performs the same function as EPSP synthase but is not inhibited by glyphosphate.

...... cut and pasted from the article I linked to above.

I think one should not compare large scale commercial farmers who do use lots of glyphosphate based herbicides and those who plant glyphosphate tolerant GMO's from the majority of us who post here who are backyard, sometimes small field hobby gardeners who wouold in no way use the amount of glyphosphate that the commercial folks do.

And much of the literature that has been linked to or alluded to here is from data obtained by study of commercial fields. In the past I reviewed some of those scientific reports and agree that when glyphosphate is sprayed on everything in a field, plants and ground as well, that there might be, could be , deleterious results.

No, I'm not a pro Monsanto person although Scotts holds the license now, I'm just trying to make some suggestions about where the info comes from, and compare large scale use on crop plants and the soil as well, with or without GMO's, with what some of us might use it for on a very infrequent basis.
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Old March 20, 2012   #17
amideutch
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I think one should not compare large scale commercial farmers who do use lots of glyphosphate based herbicides and those who plant glyphosphate tolerant GMO's from the majority of us who post here who are backyard, sometimes small field hobby gardeners who wouold in no way use the amount of glyphosphate that the commercial folks do.
I think the point is that studies have shown that Glyphosphate does create problems with plant-associated microorganisms in the soil and this is why Dr. Huber is raising the flag and saying we need to reevaluate this product and conduct more studies.

The application of Glyphosphate (RoundUp) has nothing to do with the size of the growing area whether it be a square foot garden or a several thousand acre commercial farm as the end result will be the same and that being it does cause problems with the microorganisms in the soil.

I can see to a certain extent why commercial farmers are using the product due to increased production and lower costs but for hobby gardeners I can't see any justification unless they are unable or just to lazy to pull weeds out of their gardens. Ami
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Old March 20, 2012   #18
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Originally Posted by amideutch View Post
... I think the point is that studies have shown that Glyphosphate does create problems with plant-associated microorganisms in the soil and this is why Dr. Huber is raising the flag and saying we need to reevaluate this product and conduct more studies.

The application of Glyphosphate (RoundUp) has nothing to do with the size of the growing area whether it be a square foot garden or a several thousand acre commercial farm as the end result will be the same and that being it does cause problems with the microorganisms in the soil.

I can see to a certain extent why commercial farmers are using the product due to increased production and lower costs but for hobby gardeners I can't see any justification unless they are unable or just to lazy to pull weeds out of their gardens. Ami The application of Glyphosphate (RoundUp) has nothing to do with the size of the growing area whether it be a square foot garden or a several thousand acre commercial farm as the end result will be the same and that being it does cause problems with the microorganisms in the soil.

I can see to a certain extent why commercial farmers are using the product due to increased production and lower costs but for hobby gardeners I can't see any justification unless they are unable or just to lazy to pull weeds out of their gardens. Ami

...
Respectfully, I have to disagree.

In that article Dr. Huber states that there is a belief that some problems in livestock traced to a newly identified pathogen being found in livestock feeds can be traced to what he believes to be a naturally occurring and normally benign organism that has taken advantage of genetic susceptibilities in plants created by the widespread use of glyphosate tolerant Genetically Modified Organisms in commercial agriculture.

He also inidcated that the degredation profile of glyphosate varies by soil type. Under some conditions it can build up in the soil. That can cause problems and needs further research as it can cause problems for susequent crops in th event of reactivation. Additionally it has various biocidal properties on organisms in the soil, the potential implications of which need more study.

Dr. Huber said and touched on a number of things and issues in that article, mostly indicating the need for more secure research funding and more prudence and caution in regulatory decisions regarding GMO. The problems they are seeing are symptoms of conditions facilitated by glyphosate resistant GMOs.

GMO is the catalyst. Remove GMO and you select some other alternative. Combine GMO with any other insecticide/herbicide/fungicide, etc. ... well I postulate that you will end up in a similar place of unforeseen consequences, some good and some bad, both of which are subjective judgements.

There is no clear cut right or wrong here, only choices (IMHO that is...)
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Old March 20, 2012   #19
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A number of soil microbi­ologists are all reporting the same type of impact on the soil biology. One paper mentions that it’s a very powerful herbi­cide, but also a very potent biocide. It’s a little bit selective in that it stimulates some soil organisms and is very toxic to other organisms. It’s toxic to your legume module bacteria for nitrogen fixation, also quite toxic to the organ­isms that make manganese and iron available for plant uptake, and those are critical nutrients. It stimulates the soil pathogens that do the killing from a weed control standpoint, but it also stimulates some so that you’re essentially making a super-pathogen to kill a weed. Then you leave that super-pathogen in the soil, which also attacks other plants later on in the rotation.
This is the statement I was referencing to in Dr. Hubers interview. Ami
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Old March 20, 2012   #20
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Thanks for all your replies! I knew I could count on the great people on a site as good as this to give me plenty of information. I use glyphosate extensively on my property to limit competition around the 4000 native bareroot seedlings I planted last spring and in trying to get a couple of pasture fields cleared and ready for planting Native Warm Season Grasses next winter.

B54, your comment about the place you use gly the most being the most productive was exactly what I wanted to know. You are correct in that gly will not kill bermuda by itself. I mixed it hot with clethodim and AMS last year and sprayed patches in fields as well as the new garden area. It didn't get it all, but probably killed 70-80% of the bermuda. If you know of anything that works well on bermuda, I'd be willing to try!

George, I saw one of the rope wick applicators made on a farming program a while back. I can definitely see uses for something like that for both hand use and mounted on an atv. If you have any links to building them, please share! The issue with wind drift is definitely the most hazardous thing about using gly around non-target plants. I found by mixing spray dye in with the gly that you can easily see if a drop or three get on any leaves of good plants. Had this happen several times last year and simply pinched off any affected leaves with no bad effects.
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Old March 20, 2012   #21
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Ami... I noted that statement as well. However, I took it as only containing enough information to lend additional support Dr. Huber's call for more research. The fact that a compound is toxic to certain organisms or stimulative/creating conditions conducive to another in and of itself tells us what? Bleach is quite toxic to just about everything but we still use it in great quantities. It seems to me that in that statement Dr. Huber was simply trying to illustrate. "... so that you’re essentially making a super-pathogen to kill a weed." seems an illustrative statement of what could happen under the right circumstances rather than a statement of observed fact of what has happened. One person may consider the very possibility of that as sufficient cause to abstain from the use of a compound while another may say we need to examine that possibilty more closely so that we can temper our use of the compound. With regard to glyphosate I suspect that Dr. Huber would lean towards the later though of course only he can answer that and in this article, so far as I could tell he did not call for an end to the use of glyphosate.

I whole heartedly agree with Dr. Huber that research funding needs to be secured and researchers should not be subjected to harrassment or attack if the believe of pulish material contrary to current buisness or political interests. We need science to be above that. The problem here seems to stem from the economic and political forces as much as science or public policy.

We could modify or terminate the use of glyphosate tomorrow if there is sufficent evidence to warrant it and the political will to do so. Absolutely, the use of glyphosate could be terminated tomorrow. Is that what is needed? Can we say the same for GMO or GMO consequences once introduced into the environment? How long term might its consequences be? We will never know unless we at least entertain the proposition that there are some. We need that research conducted and published without fear of retribution.

My personal opinions are that no more GMO approvals should be forthcoming without significantly more knowledge being developed and consideration given to the risks entailed. This must occur within our public agencies. Where we once needed those agencies to promote agriculture, we now need them to promote it responsibly. At times that will mean regulating it adn even restrictng it. Approvals for GMOs previously granted should be withdrawn. I believe there is still enough genetic diversity and human ingenuity out there that agriculture can survive and even flourish without it, though perhaps at a somewhat higher price point.

How high? I don't know...
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Old March 20, 2012   #22
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Rope wick how to.....

http://www.caes.uga.edu/commodities/...earopewick.pdf

For a hand held unit simply use a single wick and a capped an plugged length of 1.5" PVC. Watch out for any tendencies to leak or drip....
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Old March 21, 2012   #23
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Quote:
Ami... I noted that statement as well. However, I took it as only containing enough information to lend additional support Dr. Huber's call for more research. The fact that a compound is toxic to certain organisms or stimulative/creating conditions conducive to another in and of itself tells us what?
When you learn the functions of the different soil borne organisms in the rhizophere and how they make nutrients available to the plant that otherwise would not be available and help protect the plants from soil borne pathogens you begin to see the big picture.

So now you have Glyphosphate treated soil that only GMO crops can grow in but, due to disfunctioning soil organisms you are going to have reduced crop yields due to lack of nutrient availability and decreased disease resistance. It's like somebody that has Celiac disease and a problem with their auto immune system.

Quote:
Bleach is quite toxic to just about everything but we still use it in great quantities
But do we apply it to the soil in great quantities?? The point is will bleach in a diluted form decimate somebodies crops 200 meters down the road if it goes airborne? Glyphosphate will, and you want to spray it on your soil which you will be growing non GMO crops in, not me. Pretty soon the commercial growers will be growing everything hydroponically as the soil won't be a suitable growing medium anymore. When DDT came out they thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread till they found out what it did to the groundwater and wild life associated with it. Just my 2 cents and you all have a nice day.

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Old March 21, 2012   #24
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Originally Posted by TnMurph View Post
B54, your comment about the place you use gly the most being the most productive was exactly what I wanted to know. You are correct in that gly will not kill bermuda by itself. I mixed it hot with clethodim and AMS last year and sprayed patches in fields as well as the new garden area. It didn't get it all, but probably killed 70-80% of the bermuda. If you know of anything that works well on bermuda, I'd be willing to try!
I found something called Grass Killer by Hi-Yield that is fairly effective without harming most other plants. One application will not do it but a couple seems to work. It seems to target Bermuda grass and Bahia grass but doesn't seem to do much damage to Centipede and I have even used it to thin out Bermuda in my St. Augustine with some success. There are a lot of crops that it can be used around without harming them but if it is sprayed on many of them you have to wait to harvest. It is used by mixing one ounce of Grass Killer and one ounce of oil with a gallon of water. The stuff is not cheap but a small bottle goes a long way. I don't think it works as fast as Round-Up; but you don't have to worry about drift very much. Look it up online and many sites will give you the label with the list of crops it can be used with and the things it will kill and also the MSDS sheet. I have posted a link below that has both.

http://store.parsonspestcontrol.com/...herbicide.aspx
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Old March 21, 2012   #25
RebelRidin
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Default "Does Glysophate (roundup) harm anything in the soil?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by amideutch View Post
When you learn the functions of the different soil borne organisms in the rhizophere and how they make nutrients available to the plant that otherwise would not be available and help protect the plants from soil borne pathogens you begin to see the big picture.

So now you have Glyphosphate treated soil that only GMO crops can grow in but, due to disfunctioning soil organisms you are going to have reduced crop yields due to lack of nutrient availability and decreased disease resistance. It's like somebody that has Celiac disease and a problem with their auto immune system.



But do we apply it to the soil in great quantities?? The point is will bleach in a diluted form decimate somebodies crops 200 meters down the road if it goes airborne? Glyphosphate will, and you want to spray it on your soil which you will be growing non GMO crops in, not me. Pretty soon the commercial growers will be growing everything hydroponically as the soil won't be a suitable growing medium anymore. When DDT came out they thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread till they found out what it did to the groundwater and wild life associated with it. Just my 2 cents and you all have a nice day.

Ami

Ami... We are focusing on different pieces of the the big picture. I am more concerned with the GMO program that has enabled glyphosates current ubiquity than I am with it. More specifically I am concerned with the narrow thinking and drivers that have brought us to it. Your DDT analogy is very appropriate.

"First synthesized in 1874, DDT's insecticidal properties were not discovered until 1939, and it was used with great success in the second half of World War II to control malaria and typhus among civilians and troops. The Swiss chemist Paul Hermann Muller was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1948 "for his discovery of the high efficiency of DDT as a contact poison against several arthropods." After the war, DDT was made available for use as an agricultural insecticide, and soon its production and use skyrocketed. In 1962, Silent Spring by American biologist Rachel Carson was published. The book catalogued the environmental impacts of the indiscriminate spraying of DDT in the US and questioned the logic of releasing large amounts of chemicals into the environment without fully understanding their effects on ecology or human health."


Glyphosate, like DDT before it, probably has it's justifiable uses... Wide spread release into the environment on a massive scale isn't one of them. The study of genetics and the selection of desirable traits in plants and crops have their justifiable uses... Enabling the widespread release of a chemical into the environment is not one of them. Gene splicing probably has it's justifiable uses in the medical research laboratory. Introduction into the market (environment) of an enhanced (genetically engineered) strain of Bacillus thurengensis as a natural broad spectrum insecticidal agent (marketing jargon for the next man made ecological disaster) is not one of them.

That last item is purely an illustration (so far as I know). I could have used a strain of yeast for making alchohol from cellulose (real) or bacteria for digesting oil slicks (real) to make my point.

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Edit:

We've let this thread wander a bit from the original question, or rather I am guilty of pushing it off topic due to the materials association with GMO. The original question was:
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"Does Glysophate (roundup) harm anything in the soil?"
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Last edited by RebelRidin; March 21, 2012 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Return to Topic
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Old March 21, 2012   #26
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At the risk of sounding trite, it all seems rather common sense. Unless the plant form in question is equipped with the "round-up ready and not yet resistant" gene. It kills plants indiscriminately. Seems rather common sense that it is going to damage the soil by killing many of the living plant forms in it, that are inherent to its basic living structure. Also seems to be common sense that if it can and does become reactivated, a problem exists for protecting future desirable plants in any spot it was ever applied.

Also seems rather common sense that eating food products that are regularly soaked in toxic chemicals is unlikely to be good for you. And that negative impact is going to be hard to "prove" because impact will likely be cumulative and occur over decades, and perhaps have a greater impact on unborn children and the young.

Just because a scientist says something is safe, doesn't make it so. We have hundreds of drug recalls and lawsuits that prove that very well and drugs undergo far more critical review than today's garden chemicals do. There is excellent evidence to show that the review process is compromised. That the real story is not always told.

One can choose to err on the side of caution from the start, or one can choose to go for immediate results and address any possible consequences down the line. Main thing is to understand the issues and evaluate them critically, then decide what is best for your situation.

*shrugs*
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Old April 3, 2012   #27
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I just picked up on this thread. Nice discourse everyone.
Carolyn,
Thanks for posting the extoxnet link. Very informative.

Your statement resonated with me as well - "Summary; define what your own personal philosophy is with regard to organic vs inorganic, but don't condemn others for using a product that you wouldn't use. And don't climb on the bandwagons of those who are agenda bound. Do your own research and if you have a scientific background it really does help to be able to interpret some of the papers that report results of this or that."

We need more of that kind of rational thought in the world, much less the garden.

Last edited by JamesL; April 3, 2012 at 11:21 PM. Reason: whoops, hit post in error
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