Dotson's Lebanese Heart

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by Dutch

. . . Thank you JLJ for starting this thread as a place to find a resolution to the debate involving the naming of the heart shaped form of “Omar’s Lebanese”. . . .

Actually, I started this thread in hopes of diverting attention from non-productive arguments in a completely unrelated thread to discussion of an apparently fine tomato -- so Spartanburg, Dutch and any others who have experience with it could continue discussion of the Dotson's Lebanese Heart tomato -- considering, for example, what elements should be observed carefully by those growing this tomato and its mama, Omar's Lebanese tomato to determine whether it is more likely to be a cross or to be a mostly-shape-change mutation of Omar's Lebanese Tomato.

The name issue was settled long ago -- mystifies me why the subject keeps hijacking threads -- and, I think, causing distress to Spartanburg who has been consistently nice in spite of considerable provocation.

The last day of August and 1st of September there was surely sufficient discussion of the name issue, and September 1, Carolyn said "I've shared with you my opinion and Dutch,who is doing seed production for OLH has agreed with me,but in the end the choice is yours "

http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....7&postcount=65

There were similar statements by many, Spartanburg clearly has the right to name that tomato -- not as an appendage to a name someone else prefers, but to name it, period. The decision to name it Dotson's Lebanese Heart came up in those Aug 31 and Sept 1 discussions -- and has been maintained kindly but firmly since. The stated reason was so it could serve as a memorial for disincorporated mother -- but it really doesn't matter if that name was chosen because Worth's possum suggested it, if that's Spartanburg's choice.

Dutch's suggestion of labeling distributed seeds "Dotson's Lebanese Heart (aka Omar’s Lebanese Heart)" did seem to add some clarity, but I suggested that what Dutch identified as the "working name" be listed that way, instead of as an AKA, i.e. "Dotson's Lebanese Heart (working name was Omar’s Lebanese Heart)" as if any seeds *have* been distributed under the working name, everyone would know the final and correct name of the tomato they were growing.

This is not that uncommon -- other varieties released here have sometimes had working names, then a final name when they were deemed to be stable.

But whatever Spartanburg wants to call it is the rightful name -- and if a dual name situation is induced by others with different name preferences . . . it's not the sort of behavior that is appropriate for people who are as nice as those involved in this debate really are.

And I'm pretty sure that the nice tomato would like the nice people to discuss its virtues and possible limitations, if any, rather than what they think Spartanburg should have named it.

[imp]

Me, I would like to EAT the nice tomato.

By this time of year, I would even like to eat a naughty talking tomato who wasn't so nice as long as it tasted good.....

Yes, it's all about my mouth, LOL!!



Besides, we should be celebrating a possibly new tomato to enjoy!!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Spartanburg123

Hi Carolyn-

What I'm saying is this: the blunt heart tomato that I grew from the same seed pack of Omar's Lebanese, and progeny that was grown out by Dutch, could have resulted from one of the following:

1. A stray seed from another variety at Totally Tomatoes made its way into my seed pack, or
2. The seed produced a plant that was a spontaneous mutation of the Omar's Lebanese genetic form.

I've been going through the seed catalog at Tomatoville looking for blunt hearts with these characteristics, but no luck yet. I plan on calling them.

Thanks

Darin

Darin,although I've been chastised in a post here for posting in this thread, I'm not sure why, I will post.

I answered your #1 in the other thread I think,at this point it's confusing,and said that yes,stray seeds have been known to lead to a different variety and gave a link from Tania having to do with the variety Orange Strawberry.

#2, I was the first to suggest a possible mutation of fruit form and gave some examples.Don't ask me where at this point.

There is no seed catalog at Tville,I know you meant to say Totally Tomatoes and I'd like to make another suggestion.

When sending to to large commercial places like Jung's who own Totally Tomatoes and Tomato Growers Supply,for example,they only want a few starter seeds, I usually send just maybe 20 seeds.Then they send those to their seed suppliers to increase the numbers to be able to offer in a catalog or online.

Quite a few are now using A.P.Whaley, that's Aaron Whealey, Aaron changed the name,who produces commercial amounts for many places now.Yes, an individual can still buy seeds there but that's a sideline compared to commercial production for many veggies.Aaron is the son of Kent whealey and his wife Diane,who started SSE back in 1975. Aaron left IA and moved to WI several years ago.

His current clients include Fred Hempel and his Artisan ones,I think Mark McCaslin, TGS, SSE and I forget the rest,but I'm sure many more as well.

And IMO I think it might be better if you deal with Linda Sapp at Tomato Growers,as several TV persons have already,and for this reason.

When Wayne Hilton sold all but one of his stable of varietes, all the mistakes that were in his tomato catalog went with the verbiage at the current Totally Tomatoes owned by Jung's now.I knew someone on the staff there, she is also a TV member and tried very hard to correct the mistakes I'd pointed out to her,but few were corrected,not her fault.

Wayne now owns Seeds n Such,I'm sure some of you have that catalog, and quite a few of the original mistakes are shown there as well.

So your choice with whom you want to deal with but if it were me I'd go with Tomato Growers Supply since as I said above, there are many TV members who have sent her starter seeds for trial,including me, and she strives so very hard to get everything right..

Again,just trying to help and thanks for answering the questions that I posed to you..

Carolyn,who forgot something.Darin,you had said you couldn't find any other heart varieties that had, what you called broad leaves,meaning not wispy/droopy leaves.There are far more NON wispy/droopy ones than others.Ones such as Kosovo, Anna Margaret's Heart, German Red Strawberry, etc. Again just trying my D'est to help as I always have when questions arise and I know I can help with more background information,no doubt to my being so old and still a good memory ,not perfect, but who has a perfect memory anyway.

[carolyn137]

Dutch,I remember your refering to this many times as Omar's Lebanese Heart before Darin made any comment about changing the name.

Do you remember that Dutch? I'm pretty sure you are reading this thread as you did the other similar part of that other thread as well.

Carolyn

[Spartanburg123]

Carolyn-

Thanks for addressing the points that I put out there. Good advice on the stray seed possibility- right now I'm just trying to see if they had a variety at that time that may have dropped in the pack and would easily explain. All I can do from my holiday location is look at old threads, pictures, and try to call them- perhaps the contacts you have provided too.

Regarding a mutation, I believe I first threw out the possibility in this thread on Xanadu:

http://docandkatiesxanadu.★★★★★★★★★★...scrollTo=59225

And I believe you did agree, by PM, that this was a possibility.

Addressing your last post, yes indeedy we were referring to this tomato as "OLH" in PM correspondence and in threads. Seemed logical. Remember that in July 2015, I didn't know if I had a stable variety or not, bee cross, mutation, etc. Why would I want to name it anything else at that time? Fast forward to August 2016- and now Dutch has grown out 12 of these, and they were all hearts, and consistent. At this point, I believe My Foot Smells suggested naming it since it appeared to be stable, and I started thinking about that. And in the next few days, I thought of my Mother, and how much she would have loved it. So I requested that name change at that time. That is the sequence of events that led to "Dotson's Lebanese Heart". To say that I got pushback immediately would be an understatement!

Thanks for listening!


Darin

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Dutch,I remember your refering to this many times as Omar's Lebanese Heart before Darin made any comment about changing the name.

Do you remember that Dutch? I'm pretty sure you are reading this thread as you did the other similar part of that other thread as well.

Carolyn

Yep, I should did, Carolyn. I would have answered this question earlier but I was up to some mischief. All work and no play makes Dutch a dull dude. I do apologize for my lateness and I see Darin has addressed the question already. I gotta go now but I'll be back here at Tomatoville later to see whats happening.
Dutch

[ddsack]

Well, it feels odd opening this old thread, but it's got to be better than starting a new one or adding off topic material to other newer threads. At least the rare person who is new to this debate can go back to page 1 here.

I also recommend they read the "Heart Shaped Omar's Lebanese" thread which describes Darin's finding the heart as well as the start of this controversy at http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=37467
where you will find Darin's first choice of name at post 59 and also post 65 where Carolyn says "in the end the choice is yours."

As new material for discussion, I am copying and pasting in the long post from Carolyn from the New Varieties thread, as I said I would do. If this argument has to continue, it should be here in context with the batch of older posts on this topic. There have been too many with off topic arguments popping up unexpectedly in many unrelated places.


Carolyn, you told me not to bother posting a reply because you would not be interested and would not reply again. Not a problem. This post is not just for you, but for others in our community. I need to specifically clear up those vague accusations that you have made several times about Darin, both in the below post, as well as in other recent threads. I consider Darin a friend and my conscience and sense of justice will not allow me to sit by while you make him out to be a sneaky bad person with some kind of nebulous ulterior motive.

Carolyn said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddsack

Dee,first, Omar has NEVER taken credit for a heart shaped version of the original,EVER as you said above. I only got back in contact with Omar a few weeks ago and his first comment to me started with a WOW,saying it was 23 years since we last knew each other when he was an adjunct at a place where I was teaching.He never even knew there was a heart version until I told him about it.

Yes, Darin sent seeds of his heart version to both Marsha and myself, but I was in the hospital then rehab at the time, so didn't get them until later. Dutch was the person in my seed producer group who elected to do seed production and he saved lots of seeds.I had told Darin that Dutch confirmed it was a heart and he asked if I could put him in touch with Dutch, I said yes, but that was a big mistake other than Dutch showing him pictures of the plants with hearts..

And why was it my mistake?B/c Darin kept asking Dutch for more and more seeds, Dutch ended up sending him about 400 seeds,and Darin turned around and made a seed off with Dutch's seeds without even mentioning Dutch as his seed source as I recall but would have to confirm that. After that I told my seed producers that they were there to produce seeds for my seed offers ,they knew that already and loved growing out new varieties,and those who are SSE members for their listings there.Of course as soon as my seed offers went up, those who had done seed production could share with whomever they wanted to,and did.

What you see at Tania's listing now,is NOT what it originally was, since Darin had made some claims that were not true.Dutch asked Tania's permission to correct some of the errors, and he told her how he was involved, and she agreed, but soon got very upset to find herself in
a political situation.What you see now at her site is this

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/D...Lebanese_Heart

The only issue remaining was when Darin said that the Dotson was formerly known as Omar's Lebanese Heart, no, not formerly at all.

You said that Darin had the RIGHT to name it as he did,I'd be glad to link to the three very contentious threads where all of this was argued,so you can count how many agreed,or disagreed as to his RIGHT. I've kept all 3 three threads in my faves.

I offered to him that I would be glad to list it as Omar's Lebanese Heart,aka Dotsons Lebanese Heart, he wasn't willing to even negotiate at all.After all there would be no heart form at all if it weren't for the original Omar's Lebanese, which is important to remember.

(Omar did NOT have a heart from his tomato. You did not ever have a heart from Omar's tomato. Apparantly, no one EVER had a heart from Omar's tomato until Darin found one in his garden two years ago. He did not receive his seeds from Omar, he did not receive his seeds from you. He purchased his seeds)

The above is all true as I tried so desperately to explain to you.

Again, your last sentence, Omar NEVER took any credit for a heart version,he didn't even know there was one when I finally got in touch with him and told him.. That is important to know.

Why oh why does this issue continue to go on and on and on,but my offer to you to link to those three horrible threads is still valid if you want to confirm what I said above.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I'm surprised you didn't catch my attempt at sarcasm as in Omar taking credit for a heart. I suspect that most here know that Omar hasn't a clue about any of this, and I was making a joke since it is you trying to claim the heart in Omar's name. But I'm more concerned right now about your shabby treatment of Darin. I quote you from above:


"What you see at Tania's listing now,is NOT what it originally was, since Darin had made some claims that were not true" Carolyn, please specify exactly what you think he said that was untrue. We need specifics, not a general accusation of falsehood.

Perhaps we all need a refresher of how the wiki format which Tatania's Tomatobase uses works. If you look at the Community Portal at the main page, you can learn a lot, As many probably know, a wiki format allows for it's own community members to initiate and edit posted material. I would highly encourage breeders or those with interesting tomatoes they are producing to contact Tania about including them in the Tbase. I'm sure she would appreciate help in maintaining and adding information on new varieties not yet listed. She is only one person, and with her health and work load of relocating their farm, I suspect she has less time for the Tbase. The nice thing about the wiki format is that it is a totally transparent system. Anyone can look at the successive edit changes on a record over time, when they were made, and who made them, and even compare the actual revision version pages with changes highlighted. All this by clicking on the History button on any named variety page. Has the page for Dotson's Lebanese Heart changed since the first time it was input by Tania? Yes, of course! And most of the changes as one can see were added in degrees by Darin himself, adding pictures and expanding and clarifying the origin brief record. You can easily see the smallest edit changes Darin or Tania made, corrected spelling, word usage etc.. That is how a wiki works. I don't see anything in the first version that is false information or that clashes with the last expanded revision. Again - what claims did he make in that first versions that you say are not true?

Again I quote from above:
"I had told Darin that Dutch confirmed it was a heart and he asked if I could put him in touch with Dutch, I said yes, but that was a big mistake other than Dutch showing him pictures of the plants with hearts..

And why was it my mistake?B/c Darin kept asking Dutch for more and more seeds, Dutch ended up sending him about 400 seeds,and Darin turned around and made a seed off with Dutch's seeds without even mentioning Dutch as his seed source as I recall but would have to confirm that. "

Two falsehoods here. Darin asked Dutch for seeds once. One time. He never asked for "more and more" seeds. Dutch generously sent him one shipment, much larger in quantity, than Darin expected or could ever personally use. And yes, Darin has properly acknowledged to people with gifted seeds from him that they were produced by Dutch. He has posted various times online that his own seed stock was gone because he had mailed nearly all to you and to Marsha so was thankful for Dutch's seeds. He has always expressed extreme respect and gratitude to Dutch in his work of confirming the heart shape and growth type and producing seeds for distribution.

I do have one other question though on "he asked if I could put him in touch with Dutch, I said yes, but that was a big mistake" Why do you say it was a mistake? Was it because Darin received enough seeds to be able to do his own distribution? If so, please tell us what is bad about that. In my understanding, the reason Darin and others share their seeds with you in the first place is because they hope to get the seeds widely available to others as soon as possible. What is wrong with Darin getting back his own seeds and then beginning to get them out to the public as soon as possible? Is it your policy that you alone should have the right to distribute their seeds, and at a time of your choosing? If so, what is your reasoning?

Then you said -

" I offered to him that I would be glad to list it as Omar's Lebanese Heart,aka Dotsons Lebanese Heart, he wasn't willing to even negotiate at all.After all there would be no heart form at all if it weren't for the original Omar's Lebanese, which is important to remember."

I believe if you check back in these first pages of this current thread it was Dutch who in back in post #7 came up with the compromise of calling it Dotson's Lebanese Heart aka Omar's Lebanese Heart. Darin, like the gentleman he is, nicely agreed to the compromise. However a couple posts later, you reversed the order of the names and put Omar's first, which was not what the agreement was. In your continuing postings you have always referred to it as Omar's, so I think it was pretty clear to everyone that you had no intention of using the compromise Dotson's first, name sequence that Dutch had tried to negotiate. If one party doesn't honor the agreement, it's pretty much void. Darin was game, it was you that refused to use Dutch's suggested compromise of Dotson named first.

Flipping back to the New Varieties thread you posted this:

Dee, please don't bother to go to what you call an appropriate subject thread since I've decided that I'm out here and anywhere else for several reasons and won't continue the discussion.

Only to say that I found the envelope that Darin sent me with the seeds a few weeks ago and on the seed pack he had written POSSIBLY a heart form of Omar's Lebanese, and that can be confirmed by any of my seed producers since I listed it as possibly a heart form of Omar's Lebanese for them to chose from, which Dutch did so chose.This before he decided to rename it.

Enough is enough for me, I'm out.

Carolyn,who still has other info to share with Darin, but not related to this issue at all.

I'm not clear on what you want me to infer from what is on the envelope. What I read is a description of the seeds he is sending you - "POSSIBLY a heart form of Omar's Lebanese". This not a naming but a description of the contents of the envelope. I can't come up with another way to describe those seeds without actually using the words Omar's Lebanese, can you? I don't see this as Darin deciding on a name, especially at this stage before Dutch could verify the stability by growing out multiple plants -- there would be no reason to give it a name before the next season's plants could prove stability. It would be natural for you and the growers to refer to it as Omar's, since at that time no name had been chosen and you had to call it something. I think you just got used to calling it Omar's without realizing that Darin had never been asked if he wanted to use that as the official name.

[Spartanburg123]

DDSack- thank you for posting this. So much has happened and been said, that I too forget some of the history. I have not responded in the other thread out of respect for the original poster, who only wants feedback on the top tomato hits this year.

I know how much Carolyn loves heart shaped tomatoes, and I also know how proud she is of Omar's Lebanese- it is such a great tomato that has brought enjoyment to countless gardens all over the world- including mine! That's why I was growing it! So when I discovered that heart shaped anomaly in 2015, it was natural for me to send seeds to Carolyn. I did so knowing she was "Momma of Omar" so to speak, and would be best to judge if this was something special or not.

In "negotiations" for naming this tomato, I had pushback from the get-go. I was even offered to name an experimental variety, one that I had absolutely nothing to do with, but not DLH. Knowing the sensitivity of the issue, I agreed with Dutch's compromise on naming this- "DLH, a.k.a. OLH". As convoluted as this was, I agreed to appease all involved. Dutch then sent me seeds with the name "DLH, a.k.a. OLH" on them- a generous 300 I might add. He gave his blessing to offer them on SSE or any other forum.

As you mention above, the issue was a few days later, in posts by Carolyn, that that name was not going to stick, and was now reversed. And I knew that I had to do something before utter confusion ensued. I was also a bit angry, and I pointed out that reversal in the thread, but it had little effect. As a result, I decided to drop the "OLH" name altogether, and I sent the name and biography to Tania.

Naturally, when Dutch saw no "aka" on Tatiana's Tomatobase, he felt that I was not holding my side of the agreement, and voiced his displeasure. I can hardly blame him. I really didn't know what to say to him- and as a result, I have lost a friendship with a fella that I have the upmost respect for. I was in a rock and a hard place, as was he. I do think, however, that he knows who I am and what I stand for- and that it is simply not possible for me to have nefarious motives with any of this. I will always appreciate him growing this, for the communication and pictures, and everyone knows where those seeds came from.

Now I find myself wanting to learn about the history of the Lebanese origins of this tomato- in part because I have a coworker, Samir, who lives in Lebanon and who also grows a giant beefsteak that is very common in Lebanon. I am not investigating this for "one upmanship", or any other negative reason, just because darn it, I'm a scientist and I like to turn over rocks! It applies to my own family tree as well.

My wish is for folks to grow this and get some enjoyment out of it, with a name that is not confusing, and proliferate it for generations to come.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ddsack

Well, it feels odd opening this old thread, but it's got to be better than starting a new one or adding off topic material to other newer threads. At least the rare person who is new to this debate can go back to page 1 here.

I also recommend they read the "Heart Shaped Omar's Lebanese" thread which describes Darin's finding the heart as well as the start of this controversy at http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=37467
where you will find Darin's first choice of name at post 59 and also post 65 where Carolyn says "in the end the choice is yours."

As new material for discussion, I am copying and pasting in the long post from Carolyn from the New Varieties thread, as I said I would do. If this argument has to continue, it should be here in context with the batch of older posts on this topic. There have been too many with off topic arguments popping up unexpectedly in many unrelated places.


Carolyn, you told me not to bother posting a reply because you would not be interested and would not reply again. Not a problem. This post is not just for you, but for others in our community. I need to specifically clear up those vague accusations that you have made several times about Darin, both in the below post, as well as in other recent threads. I consider Darin a friend and my conscience and sense of justice will not allow me to sit by while you make him out to be a sneaky bad person with some kind of nebulous ulterior motive.

Carolyn said:
Carolyn, I'm surprised you didn't catch my attempt at sarcasm as in Omar taking credit for a heart. I suspect that most here know that Omar hasn't a clue about any of this, and I was making a joke since it is you trying to claim the heart in Omar's name. But I'm more concerned right now about your shabby treatment of Darin. I quote you from above:


"What you see at Tania's listing now,is NOT what it originally was, since Darin had made some claims that were not true" Carolyn, please specify exactly what you think he said that was untrue. We need specifics, not a general accusation of falsehood.

Perhaps we all need a refresher of how the wiki format which Tatania's Tomatobase uses works. If you look at the Community Portal at the main page, you can learn a lot, As many probably know, a wiki format allows for it's own community members to initiate and edit posted material. I would highly encourage breeders or those with interesting tomatoes they are producing to contact Tania about including them in the Tbase. I'm sure she would appreciate help in maintaining and adding information on new varieties not yet listed. She is only one person, and with her health and work load of relocating their farm, I suspect she has less time for the Tbase. The nice thing about the wiki format is that it is a totally transparent system. Anyone can look at the successive edit changes on a record over time, when they were made, and who made them, and even compare the actual revision version pages with changes highlighted. All this by clicking on the History button on any named variety page. Has the page for Dotson's Lebanese Heart changed since the first time it was input by Tania? Yes, of course! And most of the changes as one can see were added in degrees by Darin himself, adding pictures and expanding and clarifying the origin brief record. You can easily see the smallest edit changes Darin or Tania made, corrected spelling, word usage etc.. That is how a wiki works. I don't see anything in the first version that is false information or that clashes with the last expanded revision. Again - what claims did he make in that first versions that you say are not true?

Again I quote from above:
"I had told Darin that Dutch confirmed it was a heart and he asked if I could put him in touch with Dutch, I said yes, but that was a big mistake other than Dutch showing him pictures of the plants with hearts..

And why was it my mistake?B/c Darin kept asking Dutch for more and more seeds, Dutch ended up sending him about 400 seeds,and Darin turned around and made a seed off with Dutch's seeds without even mentioning Dutch as his seed source as I recall but would have to confirm that. "

Two falsehoods here. Darin asked Dutch for seeds once. One time. He never asked for "more and more" seeds. Dutch generously sent him one shipment, much larger in quantity, than Darin expected or could ever personally use. And yes, Darin has properly acknowledged to people with gifted seeds from him that they were produced by Dutch. He has posted various times online that his own seed stock was gone because he had mailed nearly all to you and to Marsha so was thankful for Dutch's seeds. He has always expressed extreme respect and gratitude to Dutch in his work of confirming the heart shape and growth type and producing seeds for distribution.

I do have one other question though on "he asked if I could put him in touch with Dutch, I said yes, but that was a big mistake" Why do you say it was a mistake? Was it because Darin received enough seeds to be able to do his own distribution? If so, please tell us what is bad about that. In my understanding, the reason Darin and others share their seeds with you in the first place is because they hope to get the seeds widely available to others as soon as possible. What is wrong with Darin getting back his own seeds and then beginning to get them out to the public as soon as possible? Is it your policy that you alone should have the right to distribute their seeds, and at a time of your choosing? If so, what is your reasoning?

Then you said -

" I offered to him that I would be glad to list it as Omar's Lebanese Heart,aka Dotsons Lebanese Heart, he wasn't willing to even negotiate at all.After all there would be no heart form at all if it weren't for the original Omar's Lebanese, which is important to remember."

I believe if you check back in these first pages of this current thread it was Dutch who in back in post #7 came up with the compromise of calling it Dotson's Lebanese Heart aka Omar's Lebanese Heart. Darin, like the gentleman he is, nicely agreed to the compromise. However a couple posts later, you reversed the order of the names and put Omar's first, which was not what the agreement was. In your continuing postings you have always referred to it as Omar's, so I think it was pretty clear to everyone that you had no intention of using the compromise Dotson's first, name sequence that Dutch had tried to negotiate. If one party doesn't honor the agreement, it's pretty much void. Darin was game, it was you that refused to use Dutch's suggested compromise of Dotson named first.

Flipping back to the New Varieties thread you posted this:
I'm not clear on what you want me to infer from what is on the envelope. What I read is a description of the seeds he is sending you - "POSSIBLY a heart form of Omar's Lebanese". This not a naming but a description of the contents of the envelope. I can't come up with another way to describe those seeds without actually using the words Omar's Lebanese, can you? I don't see this as Darin deciding on a name, especially at this stage before Dutch could verify the stability by growing out multiple plants -- there would be no reason to give it a name before the next season's plants could prove stability. It would be natural for you and the growers to refer to it as Omar's, since at that time no name had been chosen and you had to call it something. I think you just got used to calling it Omar's without realizing that Darin had never been asked if he wanted to use that as the official name.

Dee,your are listening to what Darin said,not what Dutch said and no, Darin did not ask Dutch for seeds just once.

Of course the possibly heart of OL was NOT listed anywhere except on the spread sheet where the seed producers make their choices, I thought it was interesting and so did Dutch who opted to do the seed production.

There was NO official name ,re Darin, until he named it what he did and you already know that.

And yes, I'm fully aware of the format at Tania's site since I have sent many seeds for her to trial and when any seed offer goes up, I've told Tania to just e-mail me with what she wants and I'll send her some seeds.

It goes both ways since she often gets seeds that turn out not to be what they should be and she'll ask me if I have any of them, and that since she knows I haven't thrown out ONE seed since 1991.Sometimes I can help,sometimes not.

I appreciate that Darin is your friend and you feel you have to defend him, but not everyone considers him a friend and you know that from all three of those contentious threads that were put up with all the bad vibes going on.

What you wrote is just too much for me to respond so I won't, except to recheck Darins seed offer to see if he anywhere gave credit to Dutch,and that b'c I'm curious,if I'm wrong,I'm wrong and will say so as I did recently when Karen started her thread in the legacy Forum about heritage canadian varieties. I said I thought Seeds of Diversity Canada was no longer active, googled it and found it was so said I was wrong and apologized.

(where you will find Darin's first choice of name at post 59 and also post 65 where Carolyn says "in the end the choice is yours.")

Of course I would say that, it was his choice, I wasn't going to tell him what to name it. I have been asked by others to help name a new tomato variety and I love to do that. The best one being Tam's trying to name what turned out to be George Detsikis Italian Red, we had lots of laughs with that one since she originally wanted to call it Gorgeous George until I told her that was a famous wrestler and asked her to go back to the person who gave her the seeds to get more information,and she did..

Carolyn,who, being a former teacher, thinks when there is a disagreement it's best to say....lets agree to to disagree. And get on with it. It has solved many situations for me, not just in my professional life but also at various online message sites,which is my personal life.

[ddsack]

Dee,your are listening to what Darin said,not what Dutch said and no, Darin did not ask Dutch for seeds just once.

When did Dutch say that, and to whom? I am sure he is trying his best to stay out of this fighting, but I would like to hear it from him. Your assurance is worthless to me at this point.

I appreciate that Darin is your friend and you feel you have to defend him, but not everyone considers him a friend and you know that from all three of those contentious threads that were put up with all the bad vibes going on.

Please list all the people who don't consider him a friend, and have argued with him on this forum, and please cite the pages and posts. Darin has been the ultimate gentleman and been polite and generous in his praise of you and Dutch throughout this ordeal. You simply can't continue using generalities to speak ill of someone.

(where you will find Darin's first choice of name at post 59 and also post 65 where Carolyn says "in the end the choice is yours.")

Of course I would say that, it was his choice, I wasn't going to tell him what to name it.

Then why are we still talking about this. You know his choice.



And you still have not answered my main question about

"What you see at Tania's listing now,is NOT what it originally was, since Darin had made some claims that were not true"

Carolyn, please specify exactly what you think he said on the tomatobase listing that was untrue. We need specifics, not a general accusation of falsehood.

[Spartanburg123]

Here is my growout thread for DLH that I started just this Spring. I tried to recognize Dutch as much as possible and have always publicly appreciated him growing this out.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=44432


From a privacy perspective, I won't share PM's with anyone, but just to say that I reviewed all of mine, and I only asked Dutch once if I could share them on SSE or another offer. He had no issues whatsoever.

[KarenO]

Dee, I stand behind you. Having been privy to behind the scenes emails sent to Darin I am compelled, as you are to take his part in this. It is clear that it is pointless to try and convince Carolyn et al that they are wrong in this.
Instead, There is a big world outside of here and I think it will be helpful to clarify the name issue to anyone who I see selling or trading that seed under the incorrect name outside of here.
Very few people have spoken up here as you have Dee and I respect your ethics. They reflect my own. That said, many have silently read these threads and I do hope it serves as a cautionary tale to anyone who might be inclined to send new variety seeds.
I know for myself that I have no wish to be bullied, railroaded or have someone take the credit for something I discover or create.

My final word on this subject: Fresh seeds from my current garden will be available to
anyone who wants them for a SASE and their word that the name chosen by the originator of this tomato, Dotson's Lebanese Heart remains with any future seed saved traded or sold.
Why?
Because it's the right thing to do, that's why.
KarenO

[Hoosier]

[ATTACH][ATTACH]20170816_183517.jpg[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
Darrin,

I moved this over here so I wouldn't muck up the other thread. Anyway I think this may be a stray seed on their end or mine. It looks a more wispy than I remembered. I might have misunderstood but I thought Carolyn said that there were other heart variants coming out of OL from other sources.

[Spartanburg123]

Hoosier- thanks for posting that here- I know how people are frustrated with off-topic distractions.

Yes, your fruit looks definitely more elongated, like an Opalka or something? I'm sure others could chime in. Here is the growout thread for DLH that has all of the pictures from start to finish- you can compare here

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=44432

DLH has very broad leaves. Below is a picture of the actual "discovery" plant in 2015- you can see the broad leaves.

Regarding who is throwing hearts and who isn't, I can't really say with no seed history given or pictures. That's why your pics are so valuable. I am trying to stay positive through all of this. I'm sure we will figure out what's going on!

Thanks
Darin

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by Spartanburg123

. . . Regarding who is throwing hearts and who isn't, I can't really say with no seed history given or pictures. That's why your pics are so valuable. I am trying to stay positive through all of this. I'm sure we will figure out what's going on!

Thanks
Darin

I've tried to keep an eye on your DLH progress but haven't had much time this summer . . . are some DLH seeds producing non-hearts? If so, it might be useful for growers to observe baby fruit conformation and keep an eye on it as it progresses. Something I've seen with the Indian Stripe Heart? fruit is that sometimes -- not always -- fruit that is clearly baby hearts becomes rounder as the fruit grows larger -- sometimes to the point that fruit that began as baby hearts is, er, "basketball shaped hearts" if it grows large enough. Just one component of "is it a heart or isn't it" evaluation. But DLH has seemed to produce mostly clear hearts even when grown to large maturity, hasn't it?