Brandywine from Croatia

[kath]

Originally Posted by travis

I sent BG an email a couple days ago inquiring about purchasing seeds. Maybe I'll get a response this week.

Oh, good...I assume you'll let us know what happens? Am probably going to send in an order within the week. Thanks, Travis.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

I'm not sure I'm with this point of view. It's like saying that a West Virginian wouldn't accept Kentucky Beefsteak or a Kentuckian wouldn't grow West Virginia '63 simply based on the name association with regional or ethnic prejudice. So what? Whose loss would that be?

And often it's not possible to narrow down the origin of a tomato to a single village or family as in the case of Jasenicki Jabucar, another very nice heirloom from the former Yugoslavian Republic (Serbia, in this case).

Travis, I do think that perhaps Structure is referring to the very recent split of Yugoslavia to Croatia and Serbia and at least I've seen lots in the national news, still, about the strong feelings that many have about that due to displacement and separation of families that were once living in the same general area but now are split by a border and a new country name.

And yes, some of the my more personal views have come with interviews with tennis players such as Djokovic and Jankovic and others who lived through it and the all the battles in and near Belgrade.

[maf]

Originally Posted by travis

I'm not sure I'm with this point of view. It's like saying that a West Virginian wouldn't accept Kentucky Beefsteak or a Kentuckian wouldn't grow West Virginia '63 simply based on the name association with regional or ethnic prejudice. So what? Whose loss would that be?

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Travis, I do think that perhaps Structure is referring to the very recent split of Yugoslavia to Croatia and Serbia and at least I've seen lots in the national news, still, about the strong feelings that many have about that due to displacement and separation of families that were once living in the same general area but now are split by a border and a new country name.

Yes, civil war and attempted ethnic cleansing with the associated mass murder and organised gang rape is a little more serious than a bit of local rivalry. I am sure the West Virginians would not like to grow Kentucky Beefsteak if the Kentuckians had tried to exterminate their race less than 20 years ago.

[travis]

Should we carry these same sentiments over to the Slovenian Black thread?

[dustdevil]

Let's skip the ethnic/political views and stay on track. Croatian Brandywine is the subject matter.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

Should we carry these same sentiments over to the Slovenian Black thread?

I don't know. What do you think?

I checked the YEarbook as well as Tania's site and Jeff Fleming got them from an Illinois family, I don't know if they named it or Jeff did, but that was in 1998.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia

From what I gather from the above link Slovenia gained independence from Yugoslavia in 1991 and it was more recent than that, I'm pretty sure without documenting it, that Yugoslavia was divided into Croatia and Serbia.

And I don't know what was happening in 1998 when Jeff was given those seeds, presumably brought from Slovenia at some earlier date but that fact not known.

So I'm not sure how Slovenia might factor into Serbia and Croatia as some have discussed in this thread, since it's been independent of Yugoslavia that long.

What am I missing here? But I'm glad to learn a bit more geography and history of the general region.

[travis]

Forget it. It really doesn't matter.

[Structure]

I don't want to beat a dead tomato...this isn't an interesting discussion for everyone, and for others is off topic, but it is an issue with tomato names that might bring out strong feelings.

Slovenia split from the former Yugoslavia peacefully. Unfortunately, there was heavy fighting in Croatia and Bosnia. As others have said, this was a nasty business with plenty of hard feelings that continue to this day.

If West Virginians had decided to name a Tennessee tomato "West Virginian" in the 1870s I suspect some southerners would have been offended, and some northerners would have liked it. Just speculation, but you can see the idea.

Honestly, I was more concerned with the use of the term "Brandywine" but also raised the issue of the name. It just seemed better to me to avoid it. If possible. I know some would say this is "political correctness gone wild," but I've always had a very high tolerance for political correctness. I'm default generous (see game theory). I'm willing to give folks the benefit of the doubt and if something is mildly offensive or uncomfortable to them, then I'll avoid it.

The less political tomato names can be the better. Hopefully, we can agree on that. Tomatoes bring us together despite our differences and give us a common interest. That's a good thing. Oh, and they are yummy too!

[rnewste]

So Folks, if this is such a good Brandywine strain, how do we get access to seeds to spread the word?

I have gone to the Santa Clara Master Gardener's Sale in the past, but all of my plants are actually in the ground a full month before the date of the Sale, so I had no intention of attending this year. I guess I could go and pick up some of these plants, but I am not sure if it is worth spending 3 hours to make the trip and walking around time. Seeds available to me right now are of far more importance.

Raybo

[velikipop]

As a Serb, with one Croatian grandparent I have an intimate knowledge of my former homeland. The feelings there are still raw but I would doubt that anyone would really get upset at the name of a tomato...but it is possible. There are several varieties from the FRY that have had whatever their original names changed...such as Kosovo and Vera`s Seed of Paradise to name only the most obvious. I strongly suspect that there are quite a few varieties in circulation that are the same but have different names. For the purist this might be an issue. For me the main concern is with taste.
I would love to get my hands on some seeds as well if they are available.

The former Yugoslavia disintegrated beginning in 1991 into its constituent republics, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia. The region ofKosovo declared its independence from Serbia in 2008 as a direct result of American intervention. Most of the intense fighting during the breakup of Yugoslavia occured in the ethnically diverse regions of Croatia and Bosnia, where the local Serbs rebeled against the, Croat and Muslim secessionist,without success.

The area is largely peaceful today and worth a vist not only because of its natural beauty but the hospitality and great food. Americans would probably want to avoid Serbia, but the dalmatian coast is gem. I scan still remember the taste of the tomatoes and cured ham that I enjoyed as a young boy on our visits to my grandfathers home on the northern dalmatian coast. Unfortunately I have yet to taste anything like those tomatoes anywhere. I suspect that the northern Mediterranean climate as well as the soil has a lot to do with the taste.

[carolyn137]

Alex, I can add a little bit here.

It was a UN worker in Kosovo who got the seeds and he was the one who named it Kosovo b'c it had no name. Ultimately the seeds got to Glenn in Australia and it was Glenn who disseminated seeds to many of us, I can't remember, but I think it was when most of us were at GW, before Tville opened.

As for the Vera one, and it was translated for me as Vera's Tomato Seeds, not Paradise, I was given those seeds by someone at another site many years ago and she had gotten then from her mother-in law, Vera, in Bosnia. Leslie gave it just that general name b'c as grown by her mother-in law for many years it had no specific name.

So in both cases it wasn't that a name was changed, rather, the seeds as first obtained from some tomato plants never had a specific name.

And I will also add that I was thinking of you last week when I tried to read a seed site from Kazachstan that Tania had linked to in a post elsewhere. You may remember that you sent me a book so that I could learn Russian, but to date haven't done so.

It's so easy to get a site translated now via the many sites online that do that, but i've always wanted to be able to read Russian myself.

One of these days, as is oft said......... so we shall see.

[velikipop]

Carolyn,

What I meant by name change is that before the seeds came across the ocean they probably had their own specific name then became, Kosovo, Ashley, Vera's, Yasha and so on. I am familiar with the discussion regarding Vera's and agreed that "paradise" should be droped because it means tomato. So the original name "Vera's Paradajz Seme" translates to Vera's Tomato Seeds. It should probably be called Vera's Bosnian.

There are many other examples of this. Several years ago I grew out Kosovo and Volovsko Srce, a popular heart variety from Yugoslavia to make sure that they were not the same thing. They were not. I also have seed for two types both called Yugoslavian, one vended by Sandhill the other from saved seed from a tomato I purchased at a Farmer's
market in Vancouver. They are entirely different. I no longer fret about names as I used to because I don't believe that I will ever be able to have 100% certainty. Taste is what really matters for me.


On a totally different subject, what do you think of the young Bojana Jovanovski?? It looks like there might be another young tennis star rising from Serbia.

Alex

[carolyn137]

On a totally different subject, what do you think of the young Bojana Jovanovski?? It looks like there might be another young tennis star rising from Serbia.

*****

I haven't seen her play yet but I know she's the youngest woman in the top 100 actually #58, I just checked, and I'll be watching how she does in the future.

Since Jelena and Anna appear to have dropped off their respective games recently it would be great to have a new face around, but I do hope that both Jelena and Anna get it together again, b'c they're both great players with lots of potential.

And yes, taste is what matters most to me as well, and I agree that naming of previously unnamed varieties might be done in a better way. Vera's Bosnia would be more to the point, but when I receive an unnamed one I let the seed donor make the name choice as I think it is only right to do, but sometimes that doesn't work out all that well.

But the Vera one came to me already named by Vera's daughter-in law here in the US.

[Farmette]

Tomatoes bring us together despite our differences and give us a common interest. That's a good thing.

This is so true! It is so important to remember that as well as the fact that these borders have changed so much over the years and that it is more than likely that a specific tomato has probably been grown by different ethnic groups within the same region over the years. My German grandmother came from a little village in what was then Austria Hungary and now is Serbia and her tomato is very likely being grown by Serbians.

[travis]

Precisely. Politics is completely tribal on the most base level. Gardening is universal.