Name this malady...if you can

[z_willus_d]

Stormy, you can be sure I'm about as OCD as they come with this obsession, but I've not encountered any so, sos, or so-in-sos, certainly not in clumps. If I had, be sure I'd have gone to work on them.
-naysen

[dice]

I wonder if it could be Broad Mite:
http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.corne.../Broad_Tom.htm

(Note where it says that you cannot see and identify individual mites
without a microscope.)

[z_willus_d]

Thanks for sharing Dice. I need to get an eye loupe check-off this line of possibilities. I spent a little time digging around in the soil subsurface (1" and up), and I did see one small spider looking bug, one fruit fly crawling around, and a whole bunch of small baby worms. This was in the Tasmanian Chocolate InnTainer, which held the only plant to have died completely -- the TC.

--naysen

[Tracydr]

How are your seedlings doing?

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Tracydr

How are your seedlings doing?

Dr. Tracy-

I'm logging much of my tribulations and successes for this year's seedlings here:
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=21691

As for the five remaining dwarf plants I have growing inside this year, they're holding on with a decent number of fruitset. I've had four fruit ripen. The reset remain green and in various stages of maturity. I have about five small Mr. Snow fruit set, since I started using an electric toothrbrush. The lower half of most branches have been removed. The branches/leaves in the next 1/4 way up region are all afflicted with the described malady. And the stuff that's growing in the upper 1/4 range, up past the cage top, that's where the new fruit is setting and the foliage seems healthiest. I just hope the plants can hold whatever it is eating them up at bay long enough to ripen most of the fruit they've set.

Thanks for inquiring.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Hello all,

I appreciate all the suggestions and ideas folks have passed along. I've pretty much taken all of them: watering from the bottom, no more myco amendments, let the plant "soil" get close to dry before watering, cut back the hours with lights on, let the night time temp fall below 60F while allowing daytime temps of 80-85F, reducing fan ON time to less than 1 hour per day, foliar spray with a dilute chamomile tea solution, and potting up next wave of seedling plugs using the lighter, less rich FoxFarm's Light Warrior potting mix (no Ocean Forest).

I spent some time this morning taking pictures of freshly atrophied leaf branches and of the sickly leaves on the seedlings. I don't have a great phone camera for taking close-up pics, but I tried to get the lighting as optimal as possible so the coloring and clarity were maximized.

Here's more description of the problem. The leaves seem to rot-out or get wet and translucent in the center line along the veins. There are some semi-transparent holes that appear. The end of the leaves get dark. The branch with partially affected leaves will fall-off to a slight touch or gust of air. Nearly all of the seedlings show some signs of this, some more so than others. I'm struggling to see how this could be a virus without the insects (indoors) to vector it. I spent an hour scanning the web for descriptions and google pictures that match what I'm seeing. I'm not really finding an exact match. I'm hoping this is some kind of deficiency or environmental issue in the "soil," but it's not obvious to me that I meet any of the descriptions for elemental micro-nutrient deficiencies.

Anyway, I'm hoping my updated description and the clearer pics might help in diagnosing this syndrome.

Thanks for everything!
-naysen

[Heritage]

Naysen,

The plants look dry to me but it could be other things environmental - doesn't look like a disease to me. What method/system are you using to water? It might just be the lighting/shadow but the soil in photo 9 looks like it is damp around the base of the plant but dry around the perimeter of the pot. I always water all of my seeding from the top with a wand to make sure ALL of the soil is thoroughly saturated across the complete surface of the pot and saturates the complete mix. I water until water drains out the bottom of the pot. A potting mix with proper drainage will drain almost immediately even if there is 1/2" of standing water across the total surface of the pot. After you water don't water again until the soil is dry @ about 1/2 to 1 inch below the surface (by touch). In other words, "giving your plants less water" should mean "extend your time between waterings, but completely saturate the soil at each watering" and NOT "water daily with less water than before". Not sure if this pertains to your watering method...

I would like to see what the root-ball(s) looks like. You can hold the pot upside down in your left hand with the stem between your middle fingers (to hold the soil in the pot) and then tap the pot off the root-ball (with a sharp rap from clippers while gently pulling on the stem) and examine the roots. This is something you should do often, and especially if you are having any problems that appear environmental.

Best of luck
Steve

[z_willus_d]

Steve,

Thanks for responding. I was watering from above with a turkey baster about once every three days. More recently (over the past week), I have used the bottom water method (as suggested by some folks in this thread). I fill a tray with water, set the pot in the tray with water, then wait for 5-min to allow the water to wick upwards into the grow media. It sounds like you prefer the top water method in an almost flush fashion. So, it's been about a week since I applied my bottom water method. I plan to water again tomorrow, most likely. The plants are getting close to dry again. Once a week watering is my goal, but I'll do it more/less often as the soil dictates. I also realize as the plants diverge in size I will have to water at different times.

What do you think causes the leaf necrosis, chlorophyll gaps, and apparent rotting that's depicted in pictures 1, 2, 3 and 10?

I'll try and take a look at the root-ball, but I doubt they've had a chance to reach the pot walls on most plants. I'll try to find one of the larger seedlings that's exhibiting problems.

Naysen

[Heritage]

Naysen,

The bottom watering method is as good, or better, than my flush system. I don't use it because it takes too much time and effort.

It's tough when you have so many variables to eliminate, even isolating just the environmental variables is difficult. Many of the leaf symptoms for over-watering, under-watering, fert. burn, incorrect temp and light, are very similar. Your photo #3 looks like possible edema, usually a watering (too much) problem. (but also other possible causes.)

What you need are control plants to eliminate every possibility and variable. If you have the time, and are willing to run side-by-side comparisons, I have several 3-4" tall tomato plugs I would be willing to contribute to your Tomato Learning Center for research. PM me if interested, and I'll mail them to you.

Steve

[z_willus_d]

Hi Steve, I'm up for anything that might shed some light. PM on the way.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

On the top of my list of possible causes, overwatering (more due to poor soil drainage than actual overdoing it with the water) and/or underwatering.

In searching about the symptoms of the overwatering condition, I came across this blog:
http://www.phoenixpermaculture.org/f...age=1#comments

He runs an experiment to see if tomatoes can thrive in standing water, and the results are surprising. I'm not sure (in fact I doubt) they would apply to all growing conditions and tomato varieties.

Here's the summary of his "findings":
Things I've learned.
1. Tomato plants cannot be over watered.
2. In the desert climate clay soil is far superior to amended soil. It holds water better. In other climates and conditions amended soil might be great...not here. It is a myth plants cannot produce roots in clay soil. Clay soil that is moist is not hard.
3. I was surprised by the amount of water plants actually used. In this closed system it was clear the plants were pulling in the water and it evaporated through respiration. This was most noticeable when a plant died and the soil remained moist while others dried on the surface.
4. As I was told by several people before moving to Phoenix "You can grow tomatoes year round" in Phoenix. These were not gardeners. Well you can indeed grow tomatoes all year here - tomato plants, not fruit. My guess is it would take 10 to 20 plants to yield the same amount of fruit that one plant would produce in less harsh climates. And even then the window for production is limited here to just a few weeks in the spring/very early summer, and a bit in the fall.
5. Tomatoes are annuals in the sense that their stems get too woody for new growth needed to produce fruit. This is the second time I have experimented with keeping a plant for multiple years with the same result. You can get some fruit in Feb-April from over wintered plants but production is low.

[kurt]

In pic no.3 what are those white specs on the leaf veins?Looks like some kind of critter sucking on them.

[z_willus_d]

No critters there, just some fine dust highlighted in the bright T5 lights. I've used a 10/20x loupe to examine a number of the leaves.

How are you seedlings coming along this year?
Thx, Naysen

[kurt]

My season starts with seedlings started in deep conical 6 inch 35 cell plug trays started directly in promixbx in the beginning of sept.One foot seedlings go into 4 gallon containers buried 75% back into promix first of oct.I just finished taking down the plants one week ago after last fruit was pulled.Temps started reaching early this year a month ago at 80-85.200 hundred assorted cherrys.20 determinates(they do not fair well here with temps and humidity)Torrential rains are coming soon.But we still grow the everglades cherry all year long.They are the most disease,bug,weather resistant plant I have found yetCherrys are topped at 15 foot.I found Algoflash Tomato Blend Fert.10 years ago and have not used anything else since.Now just waiting for mangoes, lychees,orange and grapefruits to ripen.I live in extreme South Fl.

[z_willus_d]

Kurt, I'd like to visit your house. It's sound like a near tropical paradise. 15 foot tomato vines! Sounds like the wild, jungle. Thanks for sharing.
-naysen