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Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1+ years) growout projects.

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Old February 9, 2012   #31
dice
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Quote:
The symbol "F1" means it's resistant to fusarium wilt, race 1, according to their website.
Not a really useful abbreviation to expropriate, since it is almost
universally used to mean "first filial generation" by plant hybridizers,
but looking at other listings there, that seems to be the case at Territorial.

My question about the research would be whether the quantitative
loci for earliness and size found in Early Cherry are common in cherry
cultivars in general. Many of them are early, and they are by definition
small sized.

For size, I would think one would want to compare Early Cherry with
a number of small-fruited cultivars, early, mid-season, and late, and
see how many share those same genes. (Is there anything really that
special about Early Cherry in particular for hybridizing?)

Same thing with earliness. There are few large-fruited varieties with
DTMs in the 60-65 days from transplant range, but there are numerous
saladatte and "mid-sized oblate" varieties. How common are these same
genes?
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Old February 9, 2012   #32
TheLoud
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I haven't done any sort of exhaustive search for genes that influence earliness, and I also don't know how prevalent these particular genes for earliness are in existing cultivars. 'Early Cherry' is from a breeding program in Oregon that incorporated some wild tomato relatives, so it's possible they caught some genes from the wild that aren't common in cultivated tomatoes.

I don't think I'll have room to do much tomato breeding myself in the immediate future, so I'm just thinking out loud here.
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Old February 9, 2012   #33
loeb
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I have collected some popular or less popular cultivars, and we will se what I can do with this.. Small fruits are not a problem for me, actually I prefer small ones. The traits are really hard to find, I wish there was some kind of a base of data, with cultivar and a list of its traits.. Maybe we could do one here?
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Old February 9, 2012   #34
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Early maturity has been worked on quite a bit. As noted earlier, there is a gene for Precocious Flowering that induces the first flower cluster to form at the 5th leaf node on a plant. This is significantly earlier than most tomato varieties which don't form flower buds until the 8th to 11th leaf node. Surprisingly enough, there are lots of early varieties that don't have precocious flowering.

The other genes that result in early maturity tend to restrict fruit size to around golf ball size. This group includes Stupice, Kimberly, Bloody Butcher, etc.

To get early maturity into a slicing type tomato (meaning larger than 3/4 pound) requires combining precocious flowering with rapid growth. This can be done but tends to have a side effect of limiting overall productivity of the plant. This is why I am working with some crosses involving Kimberly, Eva Purple Ball, Big Beef, and Bloody Butcher, hoping the combination will eventually result in a precocious fast growing medium size good flavored tomato.

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Old February 9, 2012   #35
goodwin
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A couple of lines I have produce ripe fruit less than 100 days from seed. They are cherry to salad size as Dar was saying. One is a PL hirsutum cross and the other has as one parent a supposed peruvianum cross. It seems like there was another thread where we were talking about this early last year. Anyway, it is good to keep the discussion going, and I'd like to hear what others are doing.
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Old February 9, 2012   #36
nctomatoman
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An interesting candidate to use for breeding for earliness is Taxi - great yield, decent size, nice yellow color - sadly, like many Determinate varieties, with such a high fruit to foliage ratio, the flavor isn't really up there where one would like it....still, it may be worth using for earliness breeding.

Another that is quite early, but quite good flavored, is Azoychka. We've mentioned the Kimberly/Stupice/Kotlas types....very early, but quite small, though tasty.
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Old February 10, 2012   #37
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I'm having some good luck in F3/F4 lines tracing to crosses with Stupice, Bloody Butcher and Kimberly. The earliest are still not large fruited - but bigger than the early parents, and better tasting

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Old February 10, 2012   #38
bower
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Very interesting thread. I was reading earlier today about counting the internodes to tell whether the plant is determinate or indeterminate, now I will have to look for the precocious gene as well.

I grew Black Sea Man last year and one of the plants was very vigorous and early, so I saved seed from that one. The fruit is up to 6+ oz so not a bad size for an early and tasty black tomato - about 120 days from germination to ripe fruit. It ripened about two weeks later than Peacevine cherry which was the earliest.

Another beefsteak type tomato which is early is Moskvich - I have friends who grow it for market, and I see it's listed at 60 days. I haven't tasted it though.
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Old February 11, 2012   #39
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I just sowed seed for beaverlodge 6808, listed at 55 days. Territorial gave it a good writeup.

I grew kimberly, matina, and bloody butcher side by side and preferred the flavor of bloody butcher, though matina yielded more and longer. Cherries: I gave up growing whippersnapper since sungold usually ripens just a few days later. Sweet baby girl was the first to ripen last year, though it didn't make much of a plant.
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Old February 11, 2012   #40
TheLoud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
there is a gene for Precocious Flowering that induces the first flower cluster to form at the 5th leaf node on a plant. This is significantly earlier than most tomato varieties which don't form flower buds until the 8th to 11th leaf node. Surprisingly enough, there are lots of early varieties that don't have precocious flowering.
That's very interesting, although I wouldn't want to burden a tiny plant with a huge tomato. I can see it being useful for small tomatoes though. Is there a list of which early varieties do and don't have this gene? Catalog descriptions just say "early" with no explanation of which kind of earliness it is.

I can see trying to stack as many earliness genes as possible into one variety, to see how freakishly early a tomato can be. The result probably wouldn't taste very good, though. Maybe I'd rather move a few, carefully selected earliness genes into some flavorful old favorites.
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Old February 11, 2012   #41
dice
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Is there a list of which early varieties do and don't have this gene?
I do not think mapping across cultivars is very extensive. Seed companies
may know particular genes in their breeding lines, but individuals breeders
are only going to know if the presence of a gene or allele is obvious
in the plant or fruit. For heirlooms, where all development resulted from
simple chance and selection for macro traits like flavor, production,
appearance, "disease tolerance" without a focus on any particular
disease, and so on, no genetic mapping was ever done unless an
heirloom cultivar happened to become part of someone's research
project in plant genetics.
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Last edited by dice; February 11, 2012 at 11:36 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old February 11, 2012   #42
Tom Wagner
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I could write volumes on earliness in tomatoes from my breeding and selection work during the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's, and now 10's. A case in particular was when I sent special hybrid tomato seeds to Ontario, Canada back thirty years ago for earliness trials. One of my hybrids was at the top of the cultivar list for first ripe and yield. The clone I used for making that hybrid is also coursing through many of my early tomato varieties of varying degrees of selfing.

BETIMES MACBETH is but one of these examples.


In my cold climate I need tomatoes to yield early...concentrated as possible and cover the ground with the bloody things. The Betimes MacBeth is now F-7 and it bears small salad tomatoes with a brilliant bloody color...very thick walls, very few tiny seeds, good flavor but not excellent, and is perfect for a cold resistant vine to set fruit and ripen within five weeks of blooming. This clone has a California processing background with frost resistance from a pimpinellifolium line coupled with ancestry from North Dakota, Michigan, Rhode Island, New York, and Ontario. It is a remarkable plant that takes the heat...takes the dryness that happens so often, and yet produces tomatoes despite cold nights.

Betimes is old old Middle English word seldom used today...it means various things but early, at once, etc., and MacBeth is known for his bloody tragedies.

Earliness coupled with cold nights is an ongoing restraint that bedevils breeding and selection work.
Some of you are probably asking how cold does it get in mid August where I live? ...47F.




Earliness and small size fruits works in tandem for me....prostrate/compact vines with concentrated set is another factor to use for success. I ended up with over 300 fruit from one vine...taking up no more room than what a bushel basket could cover. After extracting seed, the pulp went into tomato sauce and frozen. BTW, the seed will be offered soon on my website.


Below is a picture of BETIMES MACBETH



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Old February 11, 2012   #43
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Nice and little, I have to add them to my previous WagnerSquadWishlist
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Old February 21, 2012   #44
TheLoud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wagner View Post
I could write volumes on earliness in tomatoes
Please do. I don't even know how many genes we're dealing with here. So far, genes for cold tolerance, precocious flowering, and quick ripening have been mentioned. It's important to know which we're dealing with, since that would effect how to screen our plants.
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Old February 21, 2012   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wagner View Post


BETIMES MACBETH is but one of these examples.


In my cold climate I need tomatoes to yield early...concentrated as possible and cover the ground with the bloody things....
It is a remarkable plant that takes the heat...takes the dryness that happens so often, and yet produces tomatoes despite cold nights...

Earliness coupled with cold nights is an ongoing restraint that bedevils breeding and selection work...

Earliness and small size fruits works in tandem for me....prostrate/compact vines with concentrated set is another factor to use for success. ..



Tom Wagner

There are a lot of clues here, for breeding for earliness. I agree with TheLoud, I would be thrilled to hear more from you about the genetics behind these factors, including cold tolerance, fruit set in cold or other adverse conditions, determinate growth habits vis a vis earliness, etcetera.

I also want to express my appreciation for the work you are sharing, not only insightful comment but also the living seed you have bred for that purpose. I will for sure be trying Betimes MacBeth next year. Any further insights that would help us to choose a range of breeding material would be much appreciated, too.
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