Carolyn/Shawn 2018 Germination Reports

[bower]

Another thought, it occurred to me that the seed for this offer likely came from multiple seed lots ie saved from multiple tomatoes at different times and in varying conditions, where some of the seed lots had normal viability but others did not. Then mixed together before counting out 9 or 10 per pack from the mixed lot. Since the mixing is not perfect or exact, it would explain why occasionally you get a high rate of germination, even if the proportion of viable seeds was lower than 50%, just by chance and due to random distribution of viable and nonviable seeds in the mix.

There's no doubt in my mind that the seeds that did germinate for me were as healthy and vigorous as all the other seed sources I planted. They responded to the germination conditions exactly the same as my other seeds, being up and shucking the coat in 3-5 days. The failure of the other half of the seeds can't be blamed on the germination technique which worked perfectly for half the seeds in the usual time frame. It also seems less likely that an adverse condition in storage or transit would kill half the seeds and have no effect whatsoever on the others.

So I think the most likely explanation is that some seed lots were exposed to high temperature or dessication during the processing, because of a variation in ambient conditions which wasn't perceived as a danger to the seeds. The random results are best explained by mixing of viable and non-viable seedlots.

[Lindalana]

Just heard from Tania, she had quite a germination failure from large shipments she got from Russian private collectors. So there might be something to that x ray post office measures. Maybe not every office or not all mail gets scanned?

[kevinrs]

I actually found 3 more Bulgarskoye Chudo had sprouted yesterday. This is multiple weeks since anything else had sprouted, I haven't even been keeping them consistently moist in the past 2 weeks. I started them all at the end of March, so over 5 weeks to sprout?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Lindalana

Just heard from Tania, she had quite a germination failure from large shipments she got from Russian private collectors. So there might be something to that x ray post office measures. Maybe not every office or not all mail gets scanned?

I don't think so.

Maybe some of you remember when anthrax spores were being sent to several politicians, and it was back then and primarily in the Washington DC postal zip codes that there was concern.

The use of X-rays and other rays stopped many years ago.

http://www.qnhshop.com/images/QNH/US...itization.html

I had sent many bubble mailers to Shawn with seeds for the seed offer, and again asked my local P0 about mail sanitation and Debbie said no longer done.It's true that one of the mailers I sent to Shawn was mangled,if there's damage,the USPS usually tries to tape things back together, but in this case no, so I had to scrounge around to see how many of the ones that were destroyed and I clearly remember that one of them was Rubinka, seeds originally from Vladimir, seed production done, but no, I have no more Rubinka seeds at all and Freda grew it for me just once and I thought it was great.

There is still a problem when envelope types go through the rollers and the rollers now have electronic scans that kick out any envelopes that are too thick,inadequate stamps, etc.as in...return to sender.

So those of us who send seeds anywhere, and in my case not just within the US,but also Canada,Mexico,Denmark, France, Germany, Russia,Spain,Israel, etc., always pad the seeds with what has worked best for each of using padding to protect those seeds.

Above I've been talking only about tomato seeds and it's very different when sending many other kinds of seeds.

So I can't really speak to what Tatiana was sent,how it was sent,etc.

Carolyn

[HudsonValley]

From the current USPS website (http://faq.usps.com/, then enter "x-ray" in the search box):

Is Mail X-Rayed?
Some of the mail that is sent through the United States Postal Service will pass through an X-Ray machine. There are no specific guidelines as to what may or may not be x-rayed, though mail sent to or through larger cities is likely to pass through an X-Ray machine.
If you have additional questions about X-Raying of items, contact your local Post Office.
Note: Marking a mailpiece "Do Not X-Ray" will not forgo the X-Raying of a mailpiece, and may result in the item being considered suspicious.

[KarenO]

Mail order seeds are a massive and multimillion dollar industry. It’s not some sort of radioactive postal service sabotage.
What needs to be looked at are the seed collection, cleaning and storage methods used.
The problem must lie in one or more of those areas.
I did not participate in this offer. but in 2014, the last offer, similarly , I got 0 (zero) germination from the heart varieties I requested. It was suggested to me at that time that the problem must be my growing techniques despite all of my other seeds grown under the identical circumstances germinating normally.
Are your” seed producers” all using the same techniques?
KarenO

[FarmerShawn]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I don't think so.



Maybe some of you remember when anthrax spores were being sent to several politicians, and it was back then and primarily in the Washington DC postal zip codes that there was concern.



The use of X-rays and other rays stopped many years ago.



http://www.qnhshop.com/images/QNH/US...itization.html



I had sent many bubble mailers to Shawn with seeds for the seed offer, and again asked my local P0 about mail sanitation and Debbie said no longer done.It's true that one of the mailers I sent to Shawn was mangled,if there's damage,the USPS usually tries to tape things back together, but in this case no, so I had to scrounge around to see how many of the ones that were destroyed and I clearly remember that one of them was Rubinka, seeds originally from Vladimir, seed production done, but no, I have no more Rubinka seeds at all and Freda grew it for me just once and I thought it was great.



Carolyn

Minor correction, Carolyn. Rubinka arrived just fine; it was Little Dixie that never made it.
Shawn


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[FarmerShawn]

Originally Posted by KarenO

Mail order seeds are a massive and multimillion dollar industry. It’s not some sort of radioactive postal service sabotage.
What needs to be looked at are the seed collection, cleaning and storage methods used.
The problem must lie in one or more of those areas.
I did not participate in this offer. but in 2014, the last offer, similarly , I got 0 (zero) germination from the heart varieties I requested. It was suggested to me at that time that the problem must be my growing techniques despite all of my other seeds grown under the identical circumstances germinating normally.
Are your” seed producers” all using the same techniques?
KarenO

Carolyn has a collection of seed producers who help her spread the joy of rare and little-known varieties, and they do what they do simply because they like both tomatoes and Carolyn, and I have never known her to even try to regulate seed saving methods for her offers. She is, however generous with her advice on tried-and-true methods.
My understanding of her goal is to get folks to try the varieties she offers, and if they like it, save seeds themselves. Only one plant is necessary for that to happen so for the most part I am satisfied with the germination results. And I have said before, I am more than happy to send replacements to anyone who got zero germination. I have started a few seeds from most of the varieties this year, and have yet to get a zero myself (though some have admittedly been limited) so if I send you more, the likelihood of getting at least one plant from the bunch should be pretty good, even if you wait until next year to try them again.
Shawn


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by KarenO

Mail order seeds are a massive and multimillion dollar industry. It’s not some sort of radioactive postal service sabotage.
What needs to be looked at are the seed collection, cleaning and storage methods used.
The problem must lie in one or more of those areas.
I did not participate in this offer. but in 2014, the last offer, similarly , I got 0 (zero) germination from the heart varieties I requested. It was suggested to me at that time that the problem must be my growing techniques despite all of my other seeds grown under the identical circumstances germinating normally.
Are your” seed producers” all using the same techniques?
KarenO

Karen, I already posted that seed offer from 2014 in this germination thread,and did so since even though you didn't ask for seeds from the latest offer,which is for folks who participated ,I said at the top to go down a few posts where that starts,since I wanted to use the same verbiage I'd used before.

I can take a look at that post, so can you, and see what you requested, but all I remember was when you asked me for seeds of Ludmilla's Pink Heart, and that was many many years ago as you already know.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by HudsonValley

From the current USPS website (http://faq.usps.com/, then enter "x-ray" in the search box):

Is Mail X-Rayed?
Some of the mail that is sent through the United States Postal Service will pass through an X-Ray machine. There are no specific guidelines as to what may or may not be x-rayed, though mail sent to or through larger cities is likely to pass through an X-Ray machine.
If you have additional questions about X-Raying of items, contact your local Post Office.
Note: Marking a mailpiece "Do Not X-Ray" will not forgo the X-Raying of a mailpiece, and may result in the item being considered suspicious.

And yes, I followed the advice of my local PO,as you mentioned above and still do when it comes to sending tomato seeds.

Unfortunately, when talking about X-ray and roller problems, seldom, well actually I've never seen tomato seeds specifically mentioned.

Carolyn

[kevinrs]

X-rays probably wouldn't be of a level that would harm seeds. It just doesn't take that much intensity to image such a thin light package as an envelope of seeds. X-rays might harm film though, and there is special packaging available to protect film.

The irradiation would definitely be more of a concern, since it's purpose is sterilizing possible biological agents with heat, what it's really doing is "cooking" the mail. But it is only done to mail going to certain government offices in 202-205xx zip codes.

The seeds are rather flat, so I don't think going through the processing equipment is going to crush them or anything either.

So I think we can eliminate most normal theories as to mailing causing the low germination rates.

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by kevinrs

1. X-rays probably wouldn't be of a level that would harm seeds. It just doesn't take that much intensity to image such a thin light package as an envelope of seeds. X-rays might harm film though, and there is special packaging available to protect film.

2. The irradiation would definitely be more of a concern, since it's purpose is sterilizing possible biological agents with heat, what it's really doing is "cooking" the mail. But it is only done to mail going to certain government offices in 202-205xx zip codes.

3. The seeds are rather flat, so I don't think going through the processing equipment is going to crush them or anything either.

4. So I think we can eliminate most normal theories as to mailing causing the low germination rates.

1. I agree with this. I did Quality Assurance on a new technology (back in 1991) that used X-rays on electronic circuit boards to determine whether soldering was making good connections underneath integrated circuits where visual inspection was not possible. I did the measurements to verify the processes. The amount of radiation used to show the joints was less than the amount received from a 21 inch television which used a CRT (cathode ray tube) if you were 8 inches from the screen. Assuming that improvements have been made since then, this is a non-starter for our discussion.

2 Can't rule this one out, but it seems unlikely. Lots of seeds go thru the mail and are still viable.

3. Strongly disagree with this statement. About 10 years ago, Ted Corbett and I did some pictures of seeds that had gone thru the USPS's new roller systems and the physical damage was easy to see. One of the indicators at that time was residue on the inside of the small plastic ziplocks and sandwich bags. The seeds had been crushed or cracked and pieces flaked off to expose the insides. There is a thread somewhere that shows the photography and discussions. Maybe someone can find it and give us the link.

4. Not so. One of the conclusions the discussions came to was the addition of a padding to cushion the effects of the USPS rollers. Putting a layer of paper towel on both sides of our little baggies inside the mailing envelope became our best "fix".

Shawn did a super job of putting that padding around the seeds when he mailed them. As many envelopes as he had to do to make this project happen, I give him my highest respect. That had to be really tedious.

So, The post office is cleared except for the irradiation aspect. However, I still think that it is "unlikely". This problem has to be with the seed harvesting processes. For those of us who save and distribute thousands of seeds and hundreds of plants every year, it is easier to see. It would seem that KarenO and I share this conclusion.

[Sherry_AK]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

Maybe someone can find it and give us the link.

Ted -- I think this is the one you mean...

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...ght=microscope

[ContainerTed]

Sherry, you are the best. That is the very one. Hey, that was more than 9 years ago, but the problem still haunts us all.

The pictures I referred to are in post #28. But, I think everyone should read this entire thread for the wealth of information it contains.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Sherry_AK

Ted -- I think this is the one you mean...

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...ght=microscope

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of as well, so glad you found it since I see I posted in that one as well.

So now we have two retrospectives,one from 2011 that I found and linked to here and this one from 2009.

There's another one I might find sometime,it's again about roller damage. I sent two packs of the same exact seeds,one was padded and one was not.I sent them to many folks in the US in a regular small business envelope,and sent them to folks I knew who lived in large cities,but had backyards where they grew their tomatoes and other stuff and I also sent them to folks who lived in rural areas as well.

And about 80% of them got back to me with results.

Summary? Adequate padding is necessary to get good seed germination viz roller damage.

It's very late for me to be getting here today,so what have I been doing?

Spending lots of time selecting seeds for varieties to give to Rob,who for many years has raised my seedlings for me,he'll be here tomorrow with his new wife,Anastasia,she's originally from Siberia,but has been in the US for about 7 years and is now a US citizen
so I had to put that large seed pack that Clara got from that Estonian place we both loved,since it's all in Russian,and now Anastasia can translate it for me since for some reason I never grew out the seeds inside..

The following still await seeds to be sent

Lotte in Denmark,with the 3 Kukla Portuguses ones,fresh seeds from the person who first introduced them

Then Jackie in MA, with various seeds, she's the one who first FOUND those Kukla seeds, primarily for her grand daughter who is a chef

Then the several folks who signed up to get those mystery seeds,most didn't care if they came in time for this year,would try them next year since I have no idea how old the seeds are

After that I have one more important task to do at Tville,and when that's done I have several hundreds of books to read, also will get out my BIG box of crayons and my watercolor trays and will enjoy doing that.

Almost forget. More time to play all the music related links in my faves and right now I'm kind of stuck on everything from Les Miserables, same for show tunes ranging from West Side Story to Fiddler on the Roof and when Wayne loaded up my new computer he added something called Pluto,which I haven't tried yet, I get an em from them every week listing the movies that will be on the schedule. He did that since I'm completely home bound now and the only way I'll get out of the house is to be taken to an ambulance, can't even watch TV either.

Oh well,at least I'm still alive,but I do check the obits in the paper each day to confirm that.

Finally the lilacs are showing a few beginnings of blossoms, the daffodils and narcissus are just about done, and forward we go.

Carolyn