Compensating OP tomato breeders - Page 3

goodwin · May 14, 2013

Interesting thread. Like other small outfits, we don't develop new varieties to sell the seed, we do it to stay ahead of the competition at the market and the seed is a nice side business.
I think people generally trust the breeder to maintain a pure line and may value the insight that person can provide.
Lee

joseph · May 14, 2013

I would be greatly pleased with a 5% royalty if anyone were to grow out my seed and resell it. That's the target that I aim for when sending royalty payments to seed breeders. Even if I am only growing the plants to sell as vegetables at market, I often send royalties to the small scale amateur/professional breeders who's work I am using. They don't expect it, and it wasn't part of our arrangements, but it seems right to me. 10% is a burden to me, but 5% slips out of my fingers easy as can be. I think of it as akin to "freeware", or "shareware" in the software industry, which often come with a contract that says something like "make as many copies as you like. If you find the program useful send a donation of your choosing to the programmer." I often send software royalties and seed royalties.

I really dislike selling bulk seed. Because people want to pay me a pittance for it, and then I feel cheated about all the sales that I could have had to sell as individual packets.

The corporations can make their profits from selling seed. I never send royalty payments to a corporation.

I could easily make hybrid seed. Even genetically diverse hybrid seed. But in the same way that I choose not to buy corporate operating systems or software programs, I choose to not use corporate seeds, and to not adapt the corporate model of seed distribution.

I haven't bought seed for two growing seasons now. Partly because I raise my own seed, and partly because my trading network provides more than sufficient seed for my farm.

But my primary motivation for growing seed is not to sell seed. I grow seed because landrace seeds that have adapted to my soil, climate, pests, and way of doing things grow much more reliably for me than any corporate seed that is tested for average performance in average gardens. The corporate seed model cannot provide suitable seed for my unique conditions, so I have to develop my own varieties. Some of the traits that make my plants useful in my garden have proven useful in gardens in way different climates, and so I gain a reputation, and my collaboration and swap network grows. I value the prestige over the $.

The Future · February 16, 2014

Very interesting thread. OP breeders are in this for the love, not the money. I am spending years developing winter squash varieties that will last, taste sweet, grow in cool weather etc. After 10 years of getting a selection to be true to type, I would get $5 for a package of seeds that will be multiplied 1000 times in one season. Yippee. The business model for an OP breeder is a complex one. Weighing the work vs. owning nature and the buyer's replication of it, without a PVP - I haven't see way around that one yet. Perhaps the seedlings and/or processed product registered by the breeder, is the way to go. Until someone cracks this nut, love of the game is all we are in this for.

The Future · March 2, 2014

Here is an idea that will work for some plants such as winter squash. Do not sell the seed. Grow the plant and sell the fruit. Remove all male flowers from the OP variety and grow another variety as the pollinizer. Thus folks can enjoy the OP fruit but not be OP seed. At least for a while this can be kept up in a specific locale to generate some hype, sales and appreciation for the 10 years of work to create it, without other growers getting in one the deal for pennies.

For tomatoes and other perfect flowered plants, this would be too much work for most sane people.

joseph · March 2, 2014

I've picked male blossoms on squash before (one plant only). That is some hard work... Gotta stay up on it constantly.

It'd be easier on squash to create an F1 hybrid (or several of them), and let them self or cross pollinate, and sell the F1 hybrid squash fruits. That'd keep the varieties proprietary.

surf4grrl · February 16, 2015

Quote:

A germplasm royalty of 10% net sales is pretty typical for exclusive, or perhaps co-exclusive distribution rights of an OP variety - as long as the exclusivity is maintained. Without PVP protection, maintaining the exclusivity is unlikely to last more than a year or two as various small seed companies buy seed of the new variety, produce their own seed and offer it for sale. If you also produce the commercial seed you will also be paid for that - but at a rate no higher than the seed company could contract that activity themselves. If seed of the finished OP variety, or earlier generations of the variety, are distributed widely - all bets are off on getting a seed company interested in paying a germplasm royalty.

Tom, Brad and Fred/me are all trying new and different business models to capture value for the efforts of breeders - I'd say with at least moderate success. Ultimately any model for rewarding breeders for their efforts will depend on seed buyer willingness to purchase directly from the breeder/developers, or from their authorized distributors.

Personally, I think it's the responsibility of the seed vendor to pay the royalty at the end of the year. If you are knowingly selling seed that is OP that was worked n by a breeder; it's incumbent upon you to do so.

Otherwise, there's no incentive to really breed OP material without a trademark or PVP.

We need open source material and the only way to do that is to reward the folks who create it, unless specifically told that this is "free as in speech, not free as in beer". (quoting the Open seed initiative.)

joseph · February 18, 2015

To me, there are plenty of incentives and rewards for plant breeding.

I get to dabble in art and science all rolled up together into a single activity.
I get crops that are localized to my garden and grow better for me than any commercially available seed. My crops are well adjusted to the soil, the climate, the bugs, and the farmer's habits.
I save thousands of dollars a year by not having to buy seeds, or fertilizers, or poisons.
The taste of the food becomes perfectly attuned to my likes and dislikes.
The colors, shapes, sizes, and textures please my soul.
I gain honor, prestige, and bragging rights.

**nctomatoman** · January 4, 2016

Very interesting read. Let's take the Dwarf Project. It grew from curiosity, turned into a labor of love, and never, ever was there any expectation on my part (and I am sure Patrina's) to make a penny from the efforts - the education gained from doing the project, the collaborations, friendships, occasional (and rare) glimpses into a less positive side of human nature, now seeing companies make them widely available are all what I consider very valuable earnings, personally...and a few really fine individuals have made some greatly appreciated donations. It has been a superb, wonderful experience at a 99% level (and there are no 100% experiences in life). Same thing with the tomato book, and I am sure, straw bale book (royalties being what they are). For those of us who have gardening passions - maybe not all, but enough - we do other things to support ourselves, which free us up to do this that we love.

That's not to say that a more altruistic business model wouldn't be appreciated, but it is what it is...and that ain't bad.

Dutch · January 4, 2016

Nice summation of this thread Craig (nctomatoman)! Thank you!

I know what you are talking about when you say,
"It has been a superb, wonderful experience at a 99% level (and there are no 100% experiences in life)."

And thank you for documenting so much of your journey!

Dutch

nicollas · January 4, 2016

Still, it would be nice to have a way to compensate OP breeders, who are the most creative chain link from ideas to tomato on the plate, by one way or another

Dutch · January 4, 2016

Hi Nicollas,
I understand your point of view and I personally do not have a problem with OP breeders making money on their own work.

I am sadden (to say the least) when a so called breeder takes someone else's work and touts it as their own.

As for myself, I have made hundreds of crosses and never made even a plug nickel on any of it. I do it simply because I can. I enjoy being outside with nature and I even enjoy weeding! I do 100% of the work myself. My garden is only about one acre in size, so there is no need to hire anyone to help me.
Some folk may think I am out in left field, but I truly enjoy my view from there.

Dutch

nicollas · January 4, 2016

I think too that it is great to have no financial pressure and do amateur breeding. a lot of good stuff came out recently from curious or educated amateur tomato growers. But what to do when you want to do it most of your time, studying deeply genetic, spending time/space/money to grow a lot of segregating populations, ... ? I think that it is not because one enjoys doing a thing of public interest that it could only be done for free. But apparently nobody found a way to reclaim value specifically for OP breeding (not considering created advantage for seed or food production to sell by the breeder)

Dutch · January 4, 2016

Thank you for your input Nicollas.

Your point is well made and I do understand your point of view.

I am retired and have more time then money. I drive a 1983 pick up truck.
Growing over 800 tomato plants is a sun up to sun down task I love.
I eat good food, my house has electricity and I even have indoor plumbing!
Life is good!!! I want for nothing!
Dutch

nicollas · January 4, 2016

Quote:

I am sadden (to say the lest) when a so called breeder takes someone else's work and touts it as their own.

I was not aware of such actions. Yes that is a shame.

Dutch · January 4, 2016

I just want to clarify something here. I am not destitute or poor. I have money in the bank. I own my house and I paid off the mortgage years ago. There are no holes in the roof or broken windows. I have no credit card debt and I pay all my monthly bills in full every month. I drive the old 1983 pickup truck by choice. I am comfortable in it and I have no need to be ego tripping. I also have a newer Ford pickup and a car. My clothes are neat and clean. Other than being bearded with collar length blond hair and dark green/hazel eyes, my guess would be that I probably appear fairly normal to most folk. I do not know for sure because I am not them, I am me. I am happy being me!
Dutch

May 14, 2013	#2
joseph Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake Posts: 1,244	I would be greatly pleased with a 5% royalty if anyone were to grow out my seed and resell it. That's the target that I aim for when sending royalty payments to seed breeders. Even if I am only growing the plants to sell as vegetables at market, I often send royalties to the small scale amateur/professional breeders who's work I am using. They don't expect it, and it wasn't part of our arrangements, but it seems right to me. 10% is a burden to me, but 5% slips out of my fingers easy as can be. I think of it as akin to "freeware", or "shareware" in the software industry, which often come with a contract that says something like "make as many copies as you like. If you find the program useful send a donation of your choosing to the programmer." I often send software royalties and seed royalties. I really dislike selling bulk seed. Because people want to pay me a pittance for it, and then I feel cheated about all the sales that I could have had to sell as individual packets. The corporations can make their profits from selling seed. I never send royalty payments to a corporation. I could easily make hybrid seed. Even genetically diverse hybrid seed. But in the same way that I choose not to buy corporate operating systems or software programs, I choose to not use corporate seeds, and to not adapt the corporate model of seed distribution. I haven't bought seed for two growing seasons now. Partly because I raise my own seed, and partly because my trading network provides more than sufficient seed for my farm. But my primary motivation for growing seed is not to sell seed. I grow seed because landrace seeds that have adapted to my soil, climate, pests, and way of doing things grow much more reliably for me than any corporate seed that is tested for average performance in average gardens. The corporate seed model cannot provide suitable seed for my unique conditions, so I have to develop my own varieties. Some of the traits that make my plants useful in my garden have proven useful in gardens in way different climates, and so I gain a reputation, and my collaboration and swap network grows. I value the prestige over the $. Last edited by joseph; May 14, 2013 at 04:05 AM.

February 16, 2014	#3
The Future Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Bermuda Posts: 364	Very interesting thread. OP breeders are in this for the love, not the money. I am spending years developing winter squash varieties that will last, taste sweet, grow in cool weather etc. After 10 years of getting a selection to be true to type, I would get $5 for a package of seeds that will be multiplied 1000 times in one season. Yippee. The business model for an OP breeder is a complex one. Weighing the work vs. owning nature and the buyer's replication of it, without a PVP - I haven't see way around that one yet. Perhaps the seedlings and/or processed product registered by the breeder, is the way to go. Until someone cracks this nut, love of the game is all we are in this for. __________________ Wise selfishness is taking care of everyone else so that they don't bring harm to you.

March 2, 2014	#4
The Future Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Bermuda Posts: 364	Here is an idea that will work for some plants such as winter squash. Do not sell the seed. Grow the plant and sell the fruit. Remove all male flowers from the OP variety and grow another variety as the pollinizer. Thus folks can enjoy the OP fruit but not be OP seed. At least for a while this can be kept up in a specific locale to generate some hype, sales and appreciation for the 10 years of work to create it, without other growers getting in one the deal for pennies. For tomatoes and other perfect flowered plants, this would be too much work for most sane people. __________________ Wise selfishness is taking care of everyone else so that they don't bring harm to you.

February 18, 2015	#7
joseph Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake Posts: 1,244	To me, there are plenty of incentives and rewards for plant breeding. I get to dabble in art and science all rolled up together into a single activity. I get crops that are localized to my garden and grow better for me than any commercially available seed. My crops are well adjusted to the soil, the climate, the bugs, and the farmer's habits. I save thousands of dollars a year by not having to buy seeds, or fertilizers, or poisons. The taste of the food becomes perfectly attuned to my likes and dislikes. The colors, shapes, sizes, and textures please my soul. I gain honor, prestige, and bragging rights.

January 4, 2016	#8
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Very interesting read. Let's take the Dwarf Project. It grew from curiosity, turned into a labor of love, and never, ever was there any expectation on my part (and I am sure Patrina's) to make a penny from the efforts - the education gained from doing the project, the collaborations, friendships, occasional (and rare) glimpses into a less positive side of human nature, now seeing companies make them widely available are all what I consider very valuable earnings, personally...and a few really fine individuals have made some greatly appreciated donations. It has been a superb, wonderful experience at a 99% level (and there are no 100% experiences in life). Same thing with the tomato book, and I am sure, straw bale book (royalties being what they are). For those of us who have gardening passions - maybe not all, but enough - we do other things to support ourselves, which free us up to do this that we love. That's not to say that a more altruistic business model wouldn't be appreciated, but it is what it is...and that ain't bad. __________________ Craig

May 14, 2013	#1
goodwin Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Espanola, New Mexico Posts: 606	Interesting thread. Like other small outfits, we don't develop new varieties to sell the seed, we do it to stay ahead of the competition at the market and the seed is a nice side business. I think people generally trust the breeder to maintain a pure line and may value the insight that person can provide. Lee

January 4, 2016	#9
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Nice summation of this thread Craig (nctomatoman)! Thank you! I know what you are talking about when you say, "It has been a superb, wonderful experience at a 99% level (and there are no 100% experiences in life)." And thank you for documenting so much of your journey! Dutch __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries.

January 4, 2016	#10
nicollas Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: France Posts: 142	Still, it would be nice to have a way to compensate OP breeders, who are the most creative chain link from ideas to tomato on the plate, by one way or another

January 4, 2016	#13
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Thank you for your input Nicollas. Your point is well made and I do understand your point of view. I am retired and have more time then money. I drive a 1983 pick up truck. Growing over 800 tomato plants is a sun up to sun down task I love. I eat good food, my house has electricity and I even have indoor plumbing! Life is good!!! I want for nothing! Dutch __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries. Last edited by Dutch; January 4, 2016 at 06:50 AM. Reason: Grammar and spelling