Big Beef??

[TomatoDon]

Don't feel bad Carolyn K. Last year I planted 1,500+ plants, mostly Goliaths. I had a real late start and the weather got me. I abandoned the whole field by the first of July.

The Goliath's I planted early in my raised beds did fine. I really wasn't set up to do commercial production at normal planting time, and by the time I had it ready the plants weren't taking the heat too well. I could tell it would be a waste of time to continue. We had so many to wilt down in the heat while we got the drip irrigation system working right that it soon became an impossible situation to produce a good crop.

Clearly this was a "condition" problem, not a variety problem. I still have full faith in Goliath. The ones that were planted and tended to good, did good. I learned real fast that commercial growing, even on a small scale like I did, is a whole 'nother ball game.

Edit. If I remember correctly, in one of the articles I read about supporting tomatoes in a commercial operation it said that tomatoes grown in a CRW cage had twice the yield and a fraction of the work, as did staking or even the Florida weave. I read that last year and can't quote the source, but whatever the stats were, they were pretty amazing. With the 1,500 I had planted I knew it would not be worth it to go buy 1,500 stakes, and certainly not make 1,500 cages and spend several thousand dollars on tomato supports for plants that were just sitting there, stunting in the sun.

[KathyDC]

Don you make some good points - at the end of the day, a tomato that tastes good is all most people care about!

For me, I find myself drawn to OP tomatoes over hybrids because I can save the seed, and replant over and over, share with my friends, grow for a community garden, etc., all for the same initial investment. It's a frugality thing. If I felt that I could reliably save hybrid seeds (I realize some people do try) then I probably wouldn't be as hesitant to spend money on them. Of course I'm just a backyard gardener so my interests are different than those growing for market.

I also tend to link in emotional associations with my hobbies, and that's true even of sports teams (I don't care at all about sports, unless it's the University of Texas, or a Houston pro team, and then I am a rabid fan because I'm from there). So I find the historical information that sometimes comes along with heirlooms to be compelling, and it can be a large part of the reason why I grow something. About a third of the tomatoes I'm growing this year have some kind of historical or personal story attached to them. Even if the story is apocryphal, part of my enjoyment from growing those kinds of tomatoes is I like thinking that I am participating in/experiencing a part of history. There are some hybrids that I'm sure have an old pedigree, but I find it harder to get personally excited about a history that discusses how it was bred at Ole Miss versus so-and-so's German grandmother who saved it from the Titanic.

I think both points in this discussion are well-taken. Part of it IS perception. I think a lot of people find grocery store tomatoes to be just OK as opposed to great. Whereas they may taste an heirloom tomato and think - this is it! The associations are formed, and can be hard to shake even when there are hybrids that no doubt taste great, and heirlooms that don't.

Kathy

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by TomatoDon

I disagree, and you're heading off into things I never mentioned. I never said anything about selling to food chains, grocery stores, what big time commercial growers do, etc. etc. I never said anything about breeding for shelf life and shipping. I said that there are a lot of hybrids that taste as good, and many times better, than the OPs. Just because it's an OP doesn't make it automatically good.

Further, I have never said that all hybrids are good just because they are hybrids. I judge each variety individually on taste. I really couldn't care less if they are hybrid or OP. A good tomato is a good tomato. I go by variety, not classification. And I'm not on any crusade to change the world in their tastes for tomatoes. Every one should eat what they like and not let the OP vs hybrid enter into it.

My comments also had nothing to do with whatever varieties the big grocery chains sell. I don't know what the varieties are, and I doubt that many of the grocers do either.

And the breeders have not ignored taste since the 1970s. You really believe that the big commercial growers and researchers are breeding out flavor intentionally? There has been one new hybrid variety, or a new twist on a variety, over and over and over down through the years, since the 1970's, and bred for taste.

And I don't think there has been any vast conspiracy by corporate growers to "exterminate" small farmers and truck-patchers. Then you say the small grower's market share has increased because the food chains sell tasteless tomatoes. Some of these comments don't even make sense.

You also said "There is no doubt that on average heirlooms are better tasting, with a few exceptions." There is plenty of doubt. There's plenty of doubt by plenty of people. Look up some of the old threads here that we used to call "Spitters." List after list of inferior tasting tomatoes, and there were plenty of OP's on the lists.

I have a long-standing bet that I'll extend to you, too. I'll make a list of tomatoes, a pretty even mix of hybrids and OP's. We'll do a blind taste test. For every variety you correctly identify I will give you $1,000. For every one you get wrong, you give me $1,000. No one has ever taken me up on that.

But back to my post, I simply said there are a lot of good tasting hybrids, and that is a fact. I also said some are just as good, and even better, than OP's, and that is a factual statement also. That's really the content and intent of my whole post.

I re-read my post and I don't see anything controversial in it at all. I made some pretty basic comments that are true, and you rebutted with examples of things I never even mentioned.

If you are as happy with your OP's as I am with my OP's and hybrids then you are very fortunate.

HMMM the 1000 dollar bet is interesting, can we make it 10 cents each? Closer to my budget?

Oh and as far as OP vs hybrid, I grow both BTW. Including hybrid Big Beef. So I personally understand. I was referring to someone with limited experience. Sun Gold F1 may be the best cherry tomato I ever tasted in fact. Although I have a few new ones trying first time this year. We will see. The average consumer doesn't know or care if there are many thousands of varieties. All he understands is that the OP heirloom he tasted at the farmers market or grew in his back yard tastes way better than the hybrid he buys at the grocery store.


As far as your comments on the purposeful attempt to eliminate the small farmer and the inevitable backlash that created..... It is simply a fact. There is no conspiracy because conspiracy implies some secret devious plot. It is a well known and purposeful act that is constantly touted as progress. Oh what a great thing how 1% of the population can now feed 99% of everyone else. I disagree, but people in power don't. In fact Nobel prizes are even awarded to those attempting to eliminate more farmers and consolidate agriculture into ever larger more centralized production. examples being Theodore Schultz and Norman Borlaug. But the payoff is: as it happens, quality is reduced. As quality is reduced, niche markets spring up. As niche markets spring up, more aggressive attempts to eliminate them are implemented. and so the cycle goes.

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But all that actually while true, is off topic. The topic is Big beef which is a hybrid and does have the high quality taste of an heirloom.

[TightenUp]

i'm growing big beef for the first time this season. it along with brandy boy are by far the largest and most productive so far. i havent tasted any yet but i can report back in a few weeks after everything ripens up.

[b54red]

I have been growing Big Beef for an insurance tomato for years and years. It is one of the hybrids with a good balanced flavor that will usually produce a decent crop in my fusarium riddled ground. Of all the fusarium resistant hybrids it is by far my favorite. I also like Bella Rosa but despite supposedly having the same resistance to fusarium as Big Beef it usually doesn't produce before fusarium kills it. The same is true for almost all of the other varieties resistant to two races of fusarium. I have not found a variety resistant to all three races of fusarium that I find tasty enough for a fresh eating tomato.

I don't like most of the highly disease resistant hybrids but Big Beef is my favorite in taste, texture and production of those types. I have eliminated so many heirlooms from my list of tomatoes that I will grow because many are nearly tasteless or can't withstand the soil borne diseases down here. They are as a group much more finicky and unpredictable and for commercial growers those are not traits that they look for. I never know from year to year if most of the heirlooms I plant will produce or not. Some will make like crazy one year and the next not set a single fruit. Big Beef almost always sets very well despite wide changes in the weather and as a result makes more fruit consistently than any other tomato variety I have planted. My favorite tomatoes for fresh eating are all heirlooms but when it comes to a tomato that can be counted on year in and year out to produce a good tomato I don't think you can beat Big Beef. I think every newbie to tomato growing should plant at least a couple of them every year until they find heirlooms that they like better and that will produce decently in their gardens.

Bill

[AKmark]

All heirlooms were very likely a hybrid at one time. MY favorite top ten tasting tomatoes are a blend of heirloom, OP, and hybrids. Maybe OP BB will make it to heirloom status someday too, LETS SAY 2150, it's all fun though, and good eating too.

[dipchip2000]

Tomatodon

Thanks for the guidance. I couldn't find any Big Beef here locally but happened to be on a trip to Tulsa and I scored 10 good looking plants at Home Depot. I will use these to replace plants that are looking terrible and just maybe get them to produce before frost around November 1st. Thanks again, I am excited to possibly salvage this strange weather year.

ron

ps
AKmark, i disagree because the definition of heirloom precludes it ever being a hybrid. Hybrids may become OPs but not heirlooms. Just my understanding and I am sure others will correct me if I am wrong.

thanks Tomatodon

[TomatoDon]

I hope it works out well for you Chip. I picked some up yesterday and will plant them in containers and let them start under the filtered shade of a tree during this hot weather. They'll get plenty of morning sun, but not the beating rays of the afternoon as much.

The raised bed I have here in town has only 6 plants. I think there are 3 Better Boys and 3 Big Beefs. I've picked 95 tomatoes so far in just that one bed. Crack free, disease free, excellent shape and color, no BER, nice size, and delicious. And this bed is just getting started good. There are probably 50-75 green ones that will start to turn soon.

At this rate that bed should produce 300 or more tomatoes. I'm almost a third of the way to 300 already. I would love to get 500, but that may be too optimistic. I'm going to continue to track my pickings and see just how productive that bed will be this year.

Tomatoes, 7-5-13.jpg

Tomatoes 02, 7-5-12.jpg

Here is today's picking of Better Boys and Big Beef. I haven't done anything to decrease the numbers and increase the size. This is a bed that has pretty much been left alone. I haven't pinched suckers or pruned the plants in any way. Also, these two pictures are of the same tomatoes. One in the container after picking and one on the counter. The red is different because I lightened one picture to show more detail. The tomatoes on the counter are closer to the true color, depending on the natural lighting, etc. I think we picked 46 today.

Second Edit: Chip, usually the smaller ones are from the Better Boy plants and the larger ones are from Big Beef. I think that would be an accurate assessment of todays picking. If you'll notice, all of these tomatoes are basically blemish free. I can't see one bad spot on any of them. That will give you an idea of what nice fruit you can expect from Big Beef.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by dipchip2000

Tomatodon

Thanks for the guidance. I couldn't find any Big Beef here locally but happened to be on a trip to Tulsa and I scored 10 good looking plants at Home Depot. I will use these to replace plants that are looking terrible and just maybe get them to produce before frost around November 1st. Thanks again, I am excited to possibly salvage this strange weather year.

ron

ps
AKmark, i disagree because the definition of heirloom precludes it ever being a hybrid. Hybrids may become OPs but not heirlooms. Just my understanding and I am sure others will correct me if I am wrong.

thanks Tomatodon

Ron,
Next year don't be shy. I had tons of extra seedlings this year. At least 50-100. If you have a crop failure don't fret, because you have tomatoville friends.

[AKmark]

That would mean all heirlooms have never been crossed, I doubt that. I see your point but I am not sure you got what I said. Correct me if I'm wrong, but an heirloom does not mean it has existed for 10,000 years in one line, it's just an OP, usually around before 1940, but still could have been the result of many hybrids back when, bred back into an OP, with a story maybe.
Anyway BB rocks (lol)

[AKmark]

Nice perfect globes

[Irv Wiseguy]

I'm one of the few who have had disappointing results with Big Beef, although I admit it could have been all my fault. I'm not the world's greatest gardener.

I grew BB both in the ground and in an Earthbox 2 years in a row and had the same results with all plants; lots of BER and the ones that made it to the table tasted bland to me. The squirrels liked them, though. They stole a lot of them.

Unfortunately I probably won't grow them again. Too many other varieties that have done better for me.

Sorry,

Irv

TomatoDon, I am 100% in agreement with you on Big Beef--I have found it the closest to a perfect tomato for my taste- pretty seedless, blemish free, I could go on and on- they are getting started setting fruit in my garden and I can hardly wait!

[feldon30]

This year, I could only grow 4 plants. Big Beef and Cherokee Purple are my best producers, giving me over 25 fruit each in one of Ray's Earthtainers. I like the flavor of both!

[dipchip2000]

Redbaron

I am not shy at all, just frustrated. I generally plant very early and did so this year.Due to weather conditions I had to replant 4 times. I also had lots of extra seedlings and planted the last of those at the end of April. I am sure you remember the freeze we had at the end of April. In a last minute effort I covered with plastic garbage bags to protect the plants. Due to the cold,rain, and windy conditions most of the plants got grey mold. I sprayed with bleach solution and pruned like crazy probably 4 or 5 times and could never get ahead of the mold. I have 60 plants and few are going to make tomatoes before they die. They include
Kosovo,Chapman,Amazon Chocolate,African Queen,Thessaloniki,Nepal,Royal Hillbilly,Carbon,Costoluto Genevese,Cuostralea,Purple Calabash, all of which have done well for me in the past.The only bright spot is my 5 Carbon Copy plants which are not affected by the mold, and are producing like crazy. I have plenty to eat just no big slicers like last year. I hope this latest planting of the Big Beef will change the year around and finish with lots of slicers. I know I am not alone and the only victim of this years strange erratic weather but am frustrated and refuse to give up. I do appreciate the offer of plants but at the time I didnt know I needed them. Next season seems so far away but I will have plenty of Carbon Copy seeds if anyone still wants to try them. I dont think that they are totally stable yet but have not heard of any this year that produced off types.
Thanks for letting me vent

ron