Merged: Proactive or reactive spraying? (Daconil)

[hasshoes]

I'm sorry- I did not see "for the experts here" in your first post.

at times people like to post but don't have the background of the folks here that we know to be the most knowledgeable.

Regardless of experience, I think people including myself are capable of both reading and processing scientifically documented information as well a s learning from first hand experiences in their own garden and from the farms and gardens of people they know. It is certainly your choice of deciding whose input is valuable.

So far it's been a good year, good luck to you and your milk and fish spraying prevention (if you choose that again.)

[Timmah!]

Ami, Thanks for your reply.

"For my seedling drench used on plant out the solution consisted of Mycogrow Soluable, Actinovate, Biota Max, Biostart Defensor and Biostart Rhizoboost."

With the Mycogrow containing 40 different kinds of fungi, bacteria & Trichoderma, how much does it help, in your experience to add the other products as opposed to just the Mycogrow? I ask because the only soil innoculant I'm using is Mycogrow Soluble.

[Mischka]

Both threads have been merged into one, since they both refer to to an identical question asked by the OP. (original poster)

A polite reminder from our Terms of Use:

"One of the downsides about posting in forums is that words can be a poor substitute for reflecting emotion or facial expressions. Sometimes what's meant to be said isn't reflected properly in the words used. Adding a "smilie" emoticon may help, but not always. Keep this is mind before you take offense at another members' post, and if you post something and it doesn't look quite right, by all means go back and edit it. Keep your words soft and sweet, just in case you have to eat them."

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by tjg911

only duckfan came close to answering the questions i asked. please read what i am asking, don't tell me about how once it strikes because i am fully aware of that. if you wanted to be preventative when it was not required you'd spray your plants the day you planted them and even if there was no LB within 1000 miles.

please answer (if possible) the following scenarios because i do not want to spray if it is not necessary.

so again --

(for the experts here -, of which there are several here Tom and IMO have given you very good advice.

(can LB infection be ignored (preventative spraying) when there is no widespread LB outbreak in the area and no strong winds to blow it in

****

your premise is that there's no widespread outbreak in your area, and that would be only if such had been confirmed. There could well be LB infections that have not been diagnosed and not reported.

(1) temps are high (80+) when it rains for 1 or 2 or 3 days on and off as tstorms?


Temps can change very quickly so what there is now might not be what around next week or at any time in the future. And who can predict rain? Not even the weather folks can do that as I watch the radar and seemuch needed storms not hitting my area.

(2) temps are high (80+) with high humidity (dew points above 66) without rain?

Same answer as above/

(i'm operating under the premise that since LB is not widespread here that warm temps with wet foliage is not a major threat like cool to cold weather would be as last summer. )

And I'm suggesting that there may well be undiagnosed LB in your area that you'd never know about. You've seen here just at Tville that not everyone successfully diagnoses what's wrong with their tomatoes in terms of disease.

And I'm also suggsting that the weather this week may not be the same the next week or in any succeeding weeks.

(afterall, it always rains in the summer and is very humid here and LB never was a problem so the mere presence of rain and humid weather shouldn't be cause for panic spraying.)

In the past while LB has always been around the situation last year here in the NE in particular I think is cause for concern even tho the spores cannot overwinter outside of living tomato tissue and the fact that LB is not seedborne/

(after last season LB is more likely here than in the past but until it is present in the area then there is no reason to panic. as you might guess i am holding off not having sprayed yet.)

That is strictly your decision to which you are entitled.

A couple of final points.

First, I don't look at someone and say expert, non-expert, b'c we all learn every day. Speaking of myelf I see an older lady who has probably grown more varieties than most folks as well as being raised on a farm where we had acres of tomatoes.

While I've gardened organically since 1999 I have no regrets at all for using Daconil last summer and again this summer. The vagaries of weather are well known and it's also known that LB sprores can travel several hundreds of miles via air and embedded in rain droplets.

lastly, from lots of reseach done on Daconil in past years I'm of the opinion that it is not a teriible product to be feared, and that it's the ONE product that's known to be effective in helping to prevent LB, as well as EB and Septoria Leqaf Spot at the same time, which is why Cornell and other places rank it first as the product to use and I've psoted those links many times here.

So whether one uses Daconil or not I think comes down to making the decision as to whether that person wants to help ensure that they have tomatoes in this current situation we're in here in The NE, plain and simple/

[mjc]

Originally Posted by amideutch

So my approach is basically to grow a healthy plant through aggregate fertility and microbial inoculants creating a biodiversity that will help the plant fight disease along with foliar applications to prevent airborne infection.

I had to laugh at that, because it reads like ad copy plugging something...

But, basically, I think that approach is the best way to handle ANY disease...provide the healthiest plants you can, with the best natural defenses. That said, though, there are times where it may be worth it to have something to fall back upon...a 'weapon of last resort', if you will. The good start may buy you a little more time, but after all of that, wouldn't be wise to have a backup, 'just in case'?

LB is like hard drive failure...it's not a question of 'if', but rather of 'when'. And if you haven't started with a regime of fertility/inoculants/etc the 'when' is probably going to be sooner than later. Yes, temperature can mitigate/eliminate the threat, but like has been mentioned, weather is a fickle mistress and shouldn't be relied upon as the only defense.

Being totally organic, short of having boatloads of money, is either a slow process of conversion from 'conventional' or accepting that there will be many years of having nothing at all to show for your work. And, ultimately, the call to spray or not, is yours alone...with LB and tomatoes, often hinges on having or not having any 'fruits of your labor'.

[duckfan]

TJG911,
I've been gardening for almost 40 years. While I tend to do it organically, that's not an absolute. I will use non-organic methods if necessary and I won't feel bad about it. I've had a few run ins with Late Blight over the years and never knew what it was. I just accepted it and moved on. With the advent of the Internet and the explosion of information I have learned more about plant diseases in the last 5 years than I did in the previous 35. The information I posted below is some of the knowledge I've acquired over the last few years. I believe most of it is correct but be aware that it was gleaned from the Internet. We all know how dependable that can be. I am open to corrections. If someone sees an error please say so.

Let's see if this clears it up for you.
Relative humidity is far more important than temperature in the incidence of Late Blight. One model(see below) using Smith Periods does it by measuring periods of two consecutive days in which the temperature is over 50 degrees and the relative humidity is over 90% for 11 hours or more on each day. Ten hours doesn't count. There is no maximum temperature used. Warmer days have a tendency to have lower relative humidity and more sunlight (UV rays kill Late Blight spores). That's why Late Blight likes the cooler weather. It doesn't mean it's not active in hot weather. In any case, the spores must be present to multiply.
Rain may not be 100% predictable but we can usually come pretty close in predicting temperature and relative humidity. Ignore the rain. Unless it rains constantly for two days, it doesn't matter. Tropical Storms ,the ones that bring Late Blight to us, are also predictable. It generally takes several days for them to make their way up from the Southland. That's more than enough time to get ready. You just have to pay attention. If somehow a surprize storm originates in an area only a few hundred miles away from you that's infested with Late Blight and dumps a lethal dose on your garden, go out and buy a Lotto ticket. It's your lucky day.

Last year's Late Blight in tomatoes has little to do with what happens this year or even next year. It is not more likely this year. It may have even convinced the potato farmers to do a better job of cleaning up their fields. The prime cause last year was the importation of infected plants that were sold at all the Big Box stores. That combined with the cold, damp, sunless weather created the perfect storm. While it's true that the one case in NY this year can be traced to the same Company, it is still the only case. The local Media made a big stink about it, so if there were additional cases, we would have heard about it. The Media loves bad news and the silence so far is deafening. Because of all of our potato farms, Late Blight is common here. There have been fewer reports than usual this year. Even the potato farmers aren't complaining yet.

If you're asking for an absolute guarantee that any course of action will prevent Late Blight, forget it. It's not going to happen. Even if you use Chlorothanolil as the label recommends, you can still get it. Here's why. Chlorothanolil coats the plant parts and prevents the spore(actually an oömycete, spore is easier to spell) from attaching itself. After spraying, your plants are absolutely protected for 12 hours, no more. Tomato plants are growing constantly and producing new, unprotected tissue at an incredible rate. My plants grow, on average,over 1 inch in height per day. That one inch is all Late Blight needs. The laws of probability say that it's unlikely that the spore will land on that unprotected area but it can happen. Anyone who guarantees Chlorothanolil will absolutely protect your plants is a fool. Chlorothanolil reduces the probability, nothing more. There is also the possibility that a genetic mutation will render the spore immune to Chlorothanolil. The more of it we use, the more likely it is that it will happen. For that reason I prefer to use it as a weapon of last resort.
As a resident of New York State there are resources available to you that will help you make an informed decision as to whether spraying is necessary. I check both of these sites daily.

This one will give you when and where the disease has been reported in the State. As you will see, only one County in the State has had a confirmed case. That was a month ago and nothing has been seen since. Unfortunately, it's the County I live in and the current conditions have been right for the growth of spores, so I spray. The report is prepared by Dr.Meg McGrath from Cornell. She's one of the foremost experts in the world on the subject of Late Blight. Her blog will also indicate if the disease is found in a neighboring State.

http://blogs.cornell.edu/lateblight/

This tool will give you information on whether or not the conditions are suitable for the spread of the disease in your area. It does not say the disease is present, just whether or not conditions foster its development. It's based on a system called Smith Periods that accurately predict the possibility of Late Blight based on temperature and humidity over time. Zoom in to your County, click on the balloon closest to your home and it will give you all the info you need. It will also give you a forecast for several days in the future. Poke around. There's a lot of info here.

http://uspest.org/risk/tom_pot_map

Like I said, I spray but I would prefer not to. If those two tools told me it wasn't necessary. I would not spray Chlorothanolil for Late Blight. I might use it for other diseases in my garden but not for Late Blight.

Whether you spray or not is your decision. Preventive spraying is good if it is needed but a waste if it is not . Just remember that there are no absolute guarantees.

Please forgive the length of this post. You made a lot of points. I tried to address them all.

[amideutch]

Timmah, I started growing tomatoes in containers at my present location in 2006 and ate it big time as disease decimated my plants because I used no controls. Went out on the web and started researching disease controls and that is where I came across Actinovate. Used Actinovate in 2007 and disease was greatly reduced.
Got into Microbials (Mycorrhizae) in 2007, T&J enterprises and Fungi.com and hav'nt looked back since. As I learned more about Microbials my use of them has increased as well. All I can say is my plants get healthier each year and now disease is almost zero. As far as my soil drench Mycogrow Soluable and Actinovate are standard. Biota Max, Biostart Defensor and Biostart Rhizoboost are new this year to the soil drench recipe and Biostart Defensor will be used as a foliar as well. I've been happy with the results Mycogrow Soluable and Actinovate have given in 2008/2009 growing seasons and read good things about the fungi/bacteria used in the Biostart products as well as the Biota Max. The Biostart products come as a liquid and the company I bought them from uses fresh stock every year to assure viability.
So this will be an interesting season as to the new products I have added to the growing regimen plus I'm using a new grow mix composed of Peat, Barkfines and Perlite as reccomended by Raybo which he uses in his Tainers. Ami

[Timmah!]

Will be interesting to see what differences you will see in plant performance by season's end. Are you noticing any difference in growth rate or anything else of note so far with the introduction of the new innoculants?

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by tjg911

at times people like to post but don't have the background of the folks here that we know to be the most knowledgeable.

If you just want input from a few people, a lot of folks here are receptive to Private Messages. If you post publicly, regardless of adding a "for experts", you will get responses from whomever feels they have something to contribute.

[carolyn137]

Duckfan, I'll get back to your long post when I have more time.

No, I don't agree with everything you've said.

yes, I've posted the new Cornell blog update and the relevant Cornell links re LB here at Tville and eslewhere.

And yes, I've got you beat on years growing tomatoes. I was raised on what we call a truck farm, just a bit north of Albany where we had acres and acres of tomatoes and I was 71 a couple of weeks ago so starting working in the fields when I was about 10 I've had about 60 years of experience b/c I grew tomatoes wherever I was when I was working.

But like you, what I saw when I was younger I didn't know had a name, but in later years after I moved back home in 1982 from teaching med students at the U of Colorado med Center I now had all the room I wanted at the old family farm.

I got very involved with the Cornell Coop Extension, did disease surveys for Dale Riggs, interacted with Dr. Zitter at Cornell and learned one heck of a lot of stuff about tomato diseases and possible prevention and treatment.

I also had several local commercial farmers who were good friends and met their local reps several times to talk pesticides, fungicides, etc.

And I have a natural interest in disease processes b'c when I was working my major interest was human infectious disease as in bacteria, fungi, viruses and parasites, so the concepts of infectious disease as well as the agents that cause them I do know about.

That just needed expansion to diseases of vegetables and fruits, which I've done.

So, it's time now to shut the windows to try and keep the heat out, shower, dress, take myself and my walker out to the car, fling the walker in the backseat, hand walk along the car to the front seat and drive out to drive thru the bank window access to get some paper money b'c I'm all out, which is not a good situation to be in.

[Barbee]

I'm not an expert, but I think you're looking at this the wrong way, Tom. If you're going to do prevention measures for LB then you gotta pony up and do them. There is no maybe about it. You can say well it's not in my area yet, so I'll hold off but....yours may very well be the first garden it hits in your area so at that point, you're done and the decision on whether or not to try to prevent is taken away from you.

I think the decision on whether or not to try prevention measures is something you need to think about a little bit more. From what you've posted, you're not comfortable at all with the sprays used to slow down LB. Are you going to be able to eat the fruit if you decide to spray it?

I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other. That decision is yours alone to make based on what you feel comfortable with. It is my opinion that preventative spraying is not something you can sit on the fence with. As my Gran would say you gotta poo or get off the pot.

[duckfan]

Carolyn,
I'm sorry. It appears my post should have been directed at TJG911. I have made the correction. You seem to be implying that I have misinformation and that there are points on which you disagree. Please correct anything I got wrong. I would rather be corrected than go through life with the wrong information. Most of all, I don't want to spread it around.
Tom,
You get the info on CT at the Cornell site. They track CT in the blog also.

[tjg911]

thanks mischka for combining the 2 threads and creating a much more appropriate title for the thread. this has created more interest in the number of replies and very good replies as well.

i am surprised to see that the logic and analysis i was using is so flawed! i had no idea LB could come in from hundreds of miles on a storm! nuff said, i can't use my immediate area of just 10 or 20 miles as a barometer. apparently humidity is as bad if not worse than rain, it's been wicked humid here for weeks tho very dry until a few days ago when it come to rain. hot days are not necessarily a guarantee of prevention.

much thanks to Carolyn (i'm anxious to see your reply to duckfan), duckfan (your lengthy post was very interesting no need to apologize for the length when it is so full of info), mjc and Barbee!

feldon30 thank you also. i seldom ever pm someone for specific advice tho i have done it a few times. i hate to intrude upon an individual's time to answer me only when a public post could or would help many people. it is for this reason that i'll typically ask these "expert" help questions in public. i'll consider you someone i can pm in the future.

i'm really not trying to be difficult, i am extremely logical and analytical by nature. it served me well in the work i did until i retired. sometimes i guess i tend to be too rigid in thinking that everything can be reduced to a simple formula! apparently LB is not that simple to quantify. while i hate to use a chemical product in my garden i realize that i have no option unless i want to risk losing everything. fish milk allowed my infected plants to survive last year for 6-7 weeks but i don't want to suffer the low yields or total loss of plants like last summer. i hoped for a plan to avoid spraying as long as possible but what's happening 100 miles from me can be as destructive as what's happening 10 miles away, i just did not understand this.

i've had the fung-onil sitting on the counter since i bought it last week. i've been holding off but now i realize i'd better get with the program. i called bonide today and asked about their caution on spraying in "excessive heat and sun". much to my surprise they said it's not both to avoid but also sun when the temps are say in the 70's or low to mid 80's! so now i have to limit my spraying to say after 6:30 pm when the sun is low enough to not be shining on my plants! unless i hear otherwise from users who regularly spray in full sun without any problems i'll have to spray late in the day.

thanks for your help.

tom

[kath]

Originally Posted by duckfan

Carolyn,
Did I misunderstand your post?

Warning: NOT an expert

It's my understanding that Carolyn said she will get back to you on your long post later when she has the time to discuss the points with which she disagrees.

IMHO, Barbee makes a good point. Most people are only comfortable taking precautions which will allow them to still eat and enjoy their fruits and they reach a personal decision based on that reality. If saving seed is part of your priority regardless of whether you would still consider the fruit "safe" to eat, then what are you waiting for? There's no way you can rely on the forecasting info and be sure of knowing when and if your garden will be hit. If it does, you're done-so you need to be ok with that possibility...I think the clock is ticking...again, who knows?

Personally, I've read all the info that I could find this year and I want to thank again every expert and other Tomatovillian who has taken the time to post links to studies and products available, give their personal experience and opinion, and answer questions like yours and mine. As a result of their help, I was able to make a decision asap after the 1st breakouts of LB were reported in states 1 or 2 away from mine. I decided not to spray Daconil on my plants; but I'm working with many of the other products suggested on this forum and will be ok with whatever happens this year regarding disease and the longevity of my plants.

It's time for you to do the same.

[mjc]

Originally Posted by tjg911

i've had the fung-onil sitting on the counter since i bought it last week. i've been holding off but now i realize i'd better get with the program. i called bonide today and asked about their caution on spraying in "excessive heat and sun". much to my surprise they said it's not both to avoid but also sun when the temps are say in the 70's or low to mid 80's! so now i have to limit my spraying to say after 6:30 pm when the sun is low enough to not be shining on my plants! unless i hear otherwise from users who regularly spray in full sun without any problems i'll have to spray late in the day.

thanks for your help.

tom

Or 5 AM...that's when the tomato farmers around where I grew up used to spray...