Hybrid-Heirlooms

[ddsack]

Linda, they will be "Organic Heirloom Hotdogs" !

[Sun City Linda]

Originally Posted by ddsack

Linda, they will be "Organic Heirloom Hotdogs" !

Well, I for one am not buying them if the aren't!

[Hermitian]

For consumers, the good news is that if a producer in the U.S. packages seeds as "Heirloom" that prove to be not a stable hybrid, then the producer can be sued for misrepresentation with 100% certainty of success. This is due to the case law definition of "heirloom seed".

The other thing that consumers should be aware of is that the vast majority of hybrid seed produced and sold in the U.S. is stable -- regardless of claims by some marketers that only their seed is pure and true.

Just say no to fear based advertising.

Disclaimer: I do not sell seeds or plants, nor represent anyone who does.

[NarnianGarden]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

The other thing that consumers should be aware of is that the vast majority of hybrid seed produced and sold in the U.S. is stable -- regardless of claims by some marketers that only their seed is pure and true.

That's news, all I ever had read stated the opposite ... I wonder what's the case with the many commercial hybrids available in the EU.
(have saved a few seeds from a nice looking cherry now and then - will be fun to see if any resemblance to the original..)

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

... have saved a few seeds from a nice looking cherry now and then - will be fun to see if any resemblance to the original.

If they were grown in the presence of pollen from different varieties, then all bets are off. Check the definition of stable hybrid in the previous post.

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

For consumers, the good news is that if a producer in the U.S. packages seeds as "Heirloom" that prove to be not a stable hybrid, then the producer can be sued for misrepresentation with 100% certainty of success. This is due to the case law definition of "heirloom seed".

Disclaimer: I do not sell seeds or plants, nor represent anyone who does.

You have a lot more faith in guessing what some number of men and women who either couldn't figure out how get off jury duty or have a boring enough life to be willing to serve, will do.

[Cole_Robbie]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

For consumers, the good news is that if a producer in the U.S. packages seeds as "Heirloom" that prove to be not a stable hybrid, then the producer can be sued for misrepresentation with 100% certainty of success. This is due to the case law definition of "heirloom seed".

But the bad news is that your damages are limited to the amount you paid for the seeds.

[travis]

Hermitian, I truly have no data to refute your statement "that the vast majority of hybrid seed produced and sold in the U.S. is stable." There's lots of flower and vegetable seeds about which I know zero. But I don't think you have the data to support that the "vast majority" of seed produced for and grown in the U.S. is ""stable hybrid seed."

However, I know quite a bit about corn, soybeans, and tomatoes. And I'd say more single cross, F1 hybrid seed is produced for and grown in the U.S. for those three food and feed crops, and other monoculture-grown food crops, than for all the other "stable hybrid" seed to which you apparently refer.

[Hermitian]

Originally Posted by travis

... I'd say more single cross, F1 hybrid seed is produced for and grown in the U.S. for those three food and feed crops, and other monoculture-grown food crops, than for all the other "stable hybrid" seed to which you apparently refer.

Travis, if we talk about volume then I agree completely. I know that producers in 3 states are required to state which kind of hybrid (e.g., F1, X3R) if not stable so the trend in the industry is to follow.

Many people have their own definition of hybrid (and certified organic for that matter) that they love and cherish. However, a business that resells packaged seed will typically only accept products from a licensed producer. The licensed producer of packaged seed is very likely to follow the legal definition as the penalty and consumer backlash is not worth it.

The case with "certified organic" is more discouraging because the definition does not encompass a single sentence, but rather a lengthy document. If you read the opening paragraph of the USDA NOP requirements, everything seems warm and cozy. But then meander on down through all the exceptions and you'll understand that plenty of outputs from chemical factories are permitted in both the fertilizer and the pesticide.

[travis]

Hermitian, I was more concerned with the issue of "stable hybrids" rearing it's misunderstood head yet once again on the tomato boards.

Seems like the two most misunderstood and misrepresented online viral tomato gardening myths are 1) "all these (F1) hybrid tomatoes are really stable" as if you can grow out saved seeds and get the exact same plant and fruit the following year; and 2) this, that or the other tomato variety "is a genetically modified" cultivar.

As we both know, both speculations are false. But the discussions of such get out of control spurious.

Just didn't want to read yet another discussion that demeans all the work done by university horticulturalists to develop high quality, pure breeding lines to produce F1 hybrid seed for the many tomato cultivars that represent huge improvements and substantial nutritional value ... globally.

... and that's what a lot of these previous discussions devolved into.

[goodwin]

F1 hybrids exhibit a single phenotype. It may be that people confuse little or no variation in that generation with genetic stability.
Unlike some other crops, tomatoes are a highly autogamous species, and commercial crosses do not show a great deal of hybrid vigor. Essentially, they are bred to produce a reliable and uniform crop under a variety of conditions.
Lee

[Doug9345]

I think another part of the problem is that if the tomato is red, about the same size, about the same size plant, the same type leaves and produces fruit at more or less the same time people assume they are identical. There are many factors such as disease resistance that are easily discernible.

Would it shock me to learn that SOME varieties that are sold as be hybrid aren't? No! Let's see you have your producer to throw under the bus if you are caught and further more they are far far away and don't speak English or any other European language.

Is it most? I doubt it. If there is some kind of trickery or deception that can be done I'm sure someone has or is doing it particularly when you are dealing with stuff that has historically almost impossible to prove. Is this cynical yep.

[WVTomatoMan]

My 2 cents worth...I'd say that getting flamed for one or more of my comments is likely.

I took a look at the California Hybrids web site. I found it ambiguous and confusing. There was a picture of a guy, presumably Dr. Kanti, using tweezers as if doing a conventional cross. However, Dr. Kanti worked for Calgene for several years. Calgene created the genetically modified Flavr Savr tomato. So, are these heirloom hybrids a result of crossing or are they genetically modified? They say their products can be obtained by home gardeners and commercial growers through various retailers. They don't identify which retailers. Further they don't say what you'd be getting. Seeds? Plants? What? My guess is they're taking heirloom/OP varieties and crossing them to get some added traits. Then they're retaining the name of the mother heirloom/OP. AFAIK the heirloom/OP varieties (Green Zebra, San Marzano, Pineapple etc.) aren't patented or protected in any way so using the name is not illegal, but I find it unethical and dodgy at best. As a side note I don't like the term heirloom hybrid.

This is a tomato thread on a tomato discussion forum so to me legal mumbo jumbo using terms that don't apply is not relevant.

At my talks I explain that there is no universally accepted definition of the term heirloom tomatoes. I go on to cite Carolyn and Craig's definitions, other definitions and my own viewpoints. I finish by telling the audience to research and decide for themselves and try to be open and understanding of those who decide differently.

I too have seen people on the internet claim that some, many or most hybrids are actually stable varieties. Know what I say to that? Name three. It should be easy. I can name three that I know for a fact are truly F1 hybrids. They are Early Girl, Big Zac and Sungold. I don't grow many commercial F1 hybrids, so I've only tried 3 and all 3 did not come back true to type. I know that's a small sampling, but still.


Randy

[NarnianGarden]

Originally Posted by Hermitian

If they were grown in the presence of pollen from different varieties, then all bets are off. Check the definition of stable hybrid in the previous post.

I was referring to commercially grown store brought tomatoes - most likely they were grown in conditions without access to other varieties. So, we'll see if the F2 is anything like the parent - will be fun to see if the color and size will remain. (black & grape)

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by WVTomatoMan

My 2 cents worth...I'd say that getting flamed for one or more of my comments is likely.

I took a look at the California Hybrids web site. I found it ambiguous and confusing. There was a picture of a guy, presumably Dr. Kanti, using tweezers as if doing a conventional cross. However, Dr. Kanti worked for Calgene for several years. Calgene created the genetically modified Flavr Savr tomato. So, are these heirloom hybrids a result of crossing or are they genetically modified? They say their products can be obtained by home gardeners and commercial growers through various retailers. They don't identify which retailers. Further they don't say what you'd be getting. Seeds? Plants? What? My guess is they're taking heirloom/OP varieties and crossing them to get some added traits. Then they're retaining the name of the mother heirloom/OP. AFAIK the heirloom/OP varieties (Green Zebra, San Marzano, Pineapple etc.) aren't patented or protected in any way so using the name is not illegal, but I find it unethical and dodgy at best. As a side note I don't like the term heirloom hybrid.

Well put. You wrote it better than I did.

At my talks I explain that there is no universally accepted definition of the term heirloom tomatoes. I go on to cite Carolyn and Craig's definitions, other definitions and my own viewpoints. I finish by telling the audience to research and decide for themselves and try to be open and understanding of those who decide differently.

I've found that to be necessary with many products, not just tomatoes. You either try to be an educated consumer or not.

I too have seen people on the internet claim that some, many or most hybrids are actually stable varieties. Know what I say to that? Name three. It should be easy. I can name three that I know for a fact are truly F1 hybrids. They are Early Girl, Big Zac and Sungold. I don't grow many commercial F1 hybrids, so I've only tried 3 and all 3 did not come back true to type. I know that's a small sampling, but still.


Randy

One is enough to disprove the statement that claims all. I think with seeds, as with many products, it comes down to the reputation of the supplier and their desire to maintain it.

I think the real question is whether F1 tomatoes are fundamentally better than others or are they simply part of a business model that works for the bigger companies.

Along with that are built in assumptions that say uniformity is desirable, repeatability is desirable. Further assumes include that seed is a small part of the total cost of production and therefore expensive seed is justified. All ways be aware of the assumptions that are made in any discussion, they are always there and have bitten more than one person before.