Hybrid-Heirlooms

[WVTomatoMan]

Originally Posted by Doug9345

...I think the real question is whether F1 tomatoes are fundamentally better than others or are they simply part of a business model that works for the bigger companies.

To me a tomato plant is a tomato plant regardless of whether it is an F1 hybrid or OP. Not every one feels that way. I've spoken to several people who say they struggle with OP/heirlooms, but have success with hybrids. I tell them they should grow hybrids then. If people are having success they're having fun. If they're having fun they want to keep growing. When they keep growing they get to experience the satisfaction you get from growing your own home grown tomatoes. And, every one knows there's nothing like a home grown tomato.

Each tomato variety, whether an F1 hybrid or OP/heirloom, brings something to the table (haha). So to me, F1 hybrids aren't fundamentally better than OP/heirlooms nor are they fundamentally inferior. Hybrids are what they, tomato varieties with each variety having it's own set of strengths and weaknesses.

Randy

[drew51]

Randy really well put. I have only grown hybrids. Next year will be the first year of growing OP types. I grow mostly fruit and us fruit growers are always looking for new stuff because of our conditions. A cultivar that does well in CA might not do well, or even taste the same if grown in MI. So I'm looking for better adapted plants for my set of growing conditions. Some heirloom types are great, but for the most part we are looking at hybrids to meet our needs. So when I started growing tomatoes I was naturally drawn to the hybrids. Heirloom fruit really has no demand, except for a small demand in apples and peaches. To many new and productive traits have been introduced in recent years. For example blackberries require two years to fruit. Well about 20 years ago they developed first year fruiting blackberries. So now people who live in areas where a cane cannot survive the winter (but the roots can) can now grow blackberries. This year will be the first year a 1st year fruiting black raspberry will be sold. The trait was found in a wild black raspberry species in 1987. It took that long to make a viable commercial cultivar. I'm a raspberry freak, and of course ordered one!
Anyways the heirloom vegetable desirability is new to me. I guess because with most fruits we do not propagate with seed.
I just wanted to point out I went to hybrids not because of any marketing technique, but because they make more sense with fruit which I have grown for decades. I didn't get the need for OP types, and to tell the truth not sure I do yet?
With how cheap seeds are I never really thought to save seeds. Plus I needed to find what works well here. I'm still doing that! When one pays $25.00 for a fruit tree and another $25.00 for shipping, seeds seem really cheap! We often pull trees too to try something that may fit our needs better. So fruit tree growing is a thousands of dollars hobby. Currently I have 26 fruit trees. Some were only $6.00, but you can see how it can be an expensive hobby. Trees are kept to 8 feet tall, so one doesn't need acres to grow that many. Mine are on 2 lots.

So I wanted to explain why I went to hybrids, as heirlooms with fruit is almost an unknown term. Fruit growers give blank stares when people grow fruit from seed thinking "why would you want to do that?" As with tomato hybrids, fruits are unreliable as to what you will get.
Trees in nurseries are not grown from seed. Well 99% are not grown from seeds. Almost all clones. I put a peach tree in last year that comes from a seed planted about 300 years ago. We have been cloning trees for centuries.
Most likely it is not that old, but could be, for sure is over 100 years old.

[Doug9345]

When I asked if hybrid tomatoes were fundamentally better than open pollinated I was thinking in terms of if you put the same amount of resources into breeding and open pollinated tomato and a hybrid tomato would the hybrid always be better?

[drew51]

Originally Posted by Doug9345

When I asked if hybrid tomatoes were fundamentally better than open pollinated I was thinking in terms of if you put the same amount of resources into breeding and open pollinated tomato and a hybrid tomato would the hybrid always be better?

I would say no. But some of your statement is unclear to me. Like what does the amount of resources used have to do with it? Not sure what you're saying here? As far as the site you mention, I agree it is deceptive.
The terminology is already confusing to me. I'm not as offended by California Hybrids wording as I find it already extremely confusing.
In the fruit world if you say hybrid, you're talking a cross between two species. I know it can apply to one species too, but the use still confuses me.
It seems vegetables have their own definition of hybrid. And I have no idea what it is. It's way too confusing. And I've grown plants for 40 years and even have formal training in Botany.
I guess one of the problems is OP, heirlooms are also hybrids. But are not called as such, even though they are. I realize this is just my need to learn more. And i will get it eventually. I'm still quite ignorant as far as tomatoes and other vegetables go.

[WhippoorwillG]

No, hybrids are not fundamentally better in all or even most cases.

However, sometimes they offer some combinations that are very difficult to accomplish through regular breeding. Sungold comes to mind with respect to flavor, and something like Big Beef or Mountain Magic comes to mind when when speaking of resistance and/or tolerance.

Specifically you can look at genes like the ph-2 and ph-3 for blight. Most of the tomatoes I find that combine both are hybrids, heterozygous for the responsible genes. Like the first year raspberry, there may eventually be a good blight tolerant cultivar(s), but it will possibly take a few more years. And then, how long will it be relevant before new forms of late blight become prevalant?

Additionally, piling all of the desired genes (if even possible due to the location of the desired genes) into a fruit that still tastes good and has other marketable qualities is difficult. And what if you were successful at obtaining the holy grail of resistance, tolerance, and quality? After the thousands upon thousands of plants and endless hours, would you want to release it in OP form so that the early adopters can grow them out and promptly save and/or distribute your hard work for their own profit? I wouldn't. So it's either release it in hybrid form or apply for a PVP, which, if granted, creates a tenuous situation at best.

So, while I personally choose to grow mostly OP varieties so that I can save the seed, there will always be a place for hybrids like Sungold, Big Beef, and the like in my garden. One is not better than the other, IMO.

[WhippoorwillG]

Upon rereading your last response, there is a little clarification on OP, Hybrid, and Heirloom.

While almost nobody agrees on an exact definition of a heirloom, what is usually agreed upon is that it is open pollinated. So yes, at one point, every single heirloom was a hybrid tomato. But through successive generations the genetic variability has been removed, meaning that eventually (mathematically it should take 7-8 generations to become uniform) you can save the seed and produce more tomatoes of the same type. At the point that it produces "like" tomatoes, it is considered an open pollinated variety

Terms like "Modern Hybrid Heirloom" are confusing and INCORRECT, IMO!


The term Hybrid (at least in seed catalogs) refers to a first generation (F1) cross of two open pollinated tomatoes (whether or not they are heirlooms). In practice it isn't quite that simple, as some of the more complex hybrids are very complex poly-hybrids having two hybrids as parents. Additionally, the second generation of seed saved from a hybrid produces wildly different plants and fruit, depending upon the number of differences between the "parents." Unless I am misreading, seed labeling law in GA only specifies the F-1 generation be labeled as hybrid, not the following F-2, F-3, etc. generations, even though they produce genetically variable results.

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by drew51

I would say no. But some of your statement is unclear to me. Like what does the amount of resources used have to do with it?

Hybrids generally come from either large company, university or government programs that have the money to hire scientists full time to work on them. They also have access to breeding lines that the average person doesn't have, laboratories to test things, greenhouses to do year around work, farms in multiple places in the world to use. In the last 60 years I believe most of the money has gone to breeding hybrids. If you take the same things (resources) and develop OP varieties would the Hybrid be better than the OP? In corn it appears to be a resounding yes, but in the tomato I'm not so sure.

[drew51]

Whippoor,
Good posts, I did a little more reading and understand a bit more. Thanks for your post though, it really helps me understand. And again back to this seller their does seem to be an intent to deceive. Although true intent of the seller is unknown. It is clear from the descriptions that they have produced something beyond the heirloom.
The genetic mathematics of stable crossings would be an interesting study.
Yes pathogens will evolve, so the perfect tomato can never be achieved or only transient in nature. Also one man's perfection is another's poison. A firm skin for mechanical harvest is something I would care little about.
Things could be worse. We all eat the Cavendish cultivar banana which replaced another cultivar in the 50's. As that cultivar was attacked by a fungus and nearly drove the cultivar to extinction. But we found the Cavendish. Well the fungus has evolved and has wiped out all Cavendish plants in China and Australia. South America is very worried. The cloned monoculture of producing bananas is coming back to haunt us. We developed the perfect seedless banana and now need seeds to make another hybrid. How many seeds have you found in banana fruits? I guess about one seed per 100 fruit is produced. They are working on resistant strains at this time, with new crosses grown from seed.

[WVTomatoMan]

Originally Posted by Doug9345

When I asked if hybrid tomatoes were fundamentally better than open pollinated I was thinking in terms of if you put the same amount of resources into breeding and open pollinated tomato and a hybrid tomato would the hybrid always be better?

Not sure that I fully understand the question, but I'll make some general comments in the wish that it may help. Hybrid seed production is labor intensive and therefore costly. Much of the seed production is outsourced these days (i.e. no longer done in the US). California hybrids, hybrids created by universities are obvious exceptions to outsourcing. In addition parental lines must be retained so the hybrid can continue to be created. Generally hybrid seed production for a given variety is done in a large batch and then properly stored and retained in reserve for several years. By charging more for hybrid seed, seed companies are able to recoup their costs and make a profit.

OP varieties take several generations (generally 5 to 7) to stabilize, but you only have to do the cross once. So, it is a different type of resources. Once created people can then save their own seeds and don't need to repurchase seeds which cuts into future profitability.

Randy

[Cole_Robbie]

Hybrid seed production is labor intensive and therefore costly. Much of the seed production is outsourced these days (i.e. no longer done in the US).

To what country do you think most of it gets outsourced? China?

[Doug9345]

I've come across companies that offer to produce your seeds for you that are from India. I suspect anywhere labor is cheap.

[TomatoDon]

I've watched these discussions since I joined the first month T'vill started. Hybrids are often viewed as inferior step children to an "heirloom." And that no one but the uninformed could possibly consider a hybrid to even be compared to the genetically superior aristocrat, the OP or heirloom.

And we have the...An OP is an heirloom. No, it's not; Yes, it is; thing from time to time. An OP is.....An heirloom is....ad infinitum....You soon realize that even the most ardent supporters of the so-called heirlooms can't really define what they are.

I also see OP and Heirloom used interchangeably, and then later someone else will admonish us that the two aren't the same. I doubt if one person out of twenty we see at a big garden retailer in the spring would even know what the abbreviation OP means.

I stay out of it except to say there are a lot of excellent hybrids. My taste buds respect hybrids just as much as the most regally bred and cultured exotic OP, heirloom, or whatever else the aristocrats of the tomato world are called.

In defense of my lowly Goliaths, Big Beefs, and (cringe) Better Boys, I've not seen anyone claim that any OP, heirloom, etc. can beat them year in and year out for flavor, popularity, ease of growing, and production. And no one has taken me up on my (tongue-n-cheek) blindfold challenge.

Until someone can actually explain to me in clear, simple English what an heirloom is.....how it's different from, or related to, an OP or hybrid....until we actually know what constitutes once class from another with no cross-over whatsoever, then why does it even matter? It all seems arbitrary to me anyway.

Grow what does good for you. Suitable to your area, your soil, your rain and your sun and climate; your soil; what is easy to grow; what is the most reliable and productive; and simply what tastes best.

And I really don't mean to sound like I'm picking on the heirloom purists...but until they can give me the real definition of what an heirloom is, then why is it even mentioned? Like Ami, seems to me like anything that has a long track record and is special and favored should meet the criteria of "heirloom." Unless we want to start a new column and call them "Heritage" or "Legacy" tomatoes.

And nothing I've said will make a dime's difference anyway! ;-)

In peace...

TD
PS. When I first got to T'vill in January of 2006 I did not know the definition of hybrid or OP or heirloom, what the differences are, and what the points of delineation are, nor why one was better than the other. Eight years later I still don't.

[goodwin]

The advantage to growing commercial F1 hybrids is that they are designed to produce reliable and uniform crops under a variety of conditions. The advantage to open-pollinated varieties is you can save the seed and they will adapt to your climate over several seasons. You can tune their response.
A plant with good genetics, which responds to your soil, sunlight, and temperature fluctuations is a superior plant. Flavor is pretty subjective and involves a host of compounds and pathways, but is becoming better understood.
Lee

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by TomatoDon

In defense of my lowly Goliaths, Big Beefs, and (cringe) Better Boys, I've not seen anyone claim that any OP, heirloom, etc. can beat them year in and year out for flavor, popularity, ease of growing, and production. And no one has taken me up on my (tongue-n-cheek) blindfold challenge.

The implication there is that there is only one way a tomato can taste.

Until someone can actually explain to me in clear, simple English what an heirloom is.....how it's different from, or related to, an OP or hybrid....until we actually know what constitutes once class from another with no cross-over whatsoever, then why does it even matter? It all seems arbitrary to me anyway.

An heirloom relates to OP the same way that antique relates to furniture. It's a subclass. Actually it is more akin to collectable. Some people misuse the term and since language is dynamic it may also be changing to be synonymous with OP. Only time will tell on that one. The conversations around the definitions have to do with either what date to cut the term off or can it be a sliding scale like it is for antiques.

. . . then why is it even mentioned?

It's mentioned because first to meaningfully have a conversation about a subject you first have to have a vocabulary for it. Since people come from different background and areas terms often have different definitions in different places. It happens in all walks of life. A couple of terms that mean different things in different places is cord of wood and a soda. I mention them because the dividing line between how the two terms are used are very close to where I live.
[/quote]
TD
PS. When I first got to T'vill in January of 2006 I did not know the definition of hybrid or OP or heirloom, what the differences are, and what the points of delineation are, nor why one was better than the other. Eight years later I still don't.[/QUOTE]

Hybrid from the others is very easy. If the offspring from a self pollinated tomato is identical its parents then it is a hybrid, although the term tends to be only used with offspring that are of know and repeatable characteristics.


Finally there is one way that an open pollinated tomato is vastly superior to any hybrid. I or a group of people can maintain and thus control its availability indefinitely. A hybrid variety you depend on the will and whim of corporations to make it available every year.

On another thread someone is looking for Sukara Honey seed which appears to be discontinued by Johnny's. If I find a tomato that I like I don't want to be at the whim of a company to keep producing it. I hate it in shoes and sneakers. I hate it in glasses. I hate it in car seats and I hate it in my garden. The sneakers and car seats are hard to get around. For aviator glasses without the nose pieces there is always ebay and new old stock, plus I usually get 5 to ten years out of a set of frames.

Tomatoes for myself I don't have to put up with it. I don't care if an OP is half as productive as an hybrid I can always plant 4 instead of 2.

[WVTomatoMan]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

Hybrid seed production is labor intensive and therefore costly. Much of the seed production is outsourced these days (i.e. no longer done in the US).

To what country do you think most of it gets outsourced? China?

Initially Taiwan and Thailand were the major players. More recently China, India, Mexico and Chile have joined the aforementioned two. I researched this a while back. Perhaps someone could look around the internet and find corroborating and/or more recent information/data?

OBTW, as I recall one of the articles I read talked about how the contracting works and how the seed company could do inspections to ensure seed quality etc.

Randy