fertilization and soil types

[kevn357]

Just curious how often everyone fertilizes. I dug out my clay and and put in a very sandy base thinking it would be too wet but had to water thanks to the drought. I realized quickly that I needed to add ferts a lot more often as my plants developed nutrient deficiencies very quickly. I guess clay would of been better in a drought.

I give my plants a triple 13 every week now and they are doing very well as I planted late. They did nothing but turn ugly colors when I used the 5-4-3 or 4-5-5 organic ferts that didn't seem to do anything but were fantastic in clay.

[RayR]

You should have stayed with the clay and amended with organic matter.
Sandy soils have a low cation exchange capacity and leach nutrients quickly, that's why you need to fertilize so often with the synthetic ferts. Clay and organic matter have a high cation exchange capacity, so they hold nutrients. Organic ferts require microbial life to make nutrients available to the plants, clay soils provide a more stable home to sustain good populations of soil bacteria and fungi.

[habitat_gardener]

I have wonderful clay soil to which I've added homemade compost for almost 10 years -- and I moved my soil when I moved my garden this spring! For tomatoes, I put a handful of alfalfa pellets in the hole at planting time. That's it. No other ferts.

[kevn357]

I've seen my dads huge garden get nothing but root rot when it rains a ton in his clay. I don't regret having to add more ferts and water in a drought as opposed to dying plants with a 10 inch rain in a week.

[Cole_Robbie]

You could just put time-release fertilizer like osmocote under each plant when you set them out.

I have clay soil, too, and most people I know amend it with manure.

[Art_]

I dug in lots of horse manure and compost from kitchen scraps before planting. Then watered once a week with soaker hoses, and gave them a tea once or twice made from alfalfa pellets and what was left of some bat guano.

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by kevn357

Just curious how often everyone fertilizes. I dug out my clay and and put in a very sandy base thinking it would be too wet but had to water thanks to the drought.

Digging a hole in a clay soil base and then filling it with good soil can create a "bathtub" effect. If you have heavy rains, the "bowl" will fill with water and could take hours/days to drain.

I always advise raised beds for clay soil. Eventually, the organic matter you add will improve the drainage and tilth of the soil below, but in the meantime, you have risen above any drainage problems.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by kevn357

Just curious how often everyone fertilizes. I dug out my clay and and put in a very sandy base thinking it would be too wet but had to water thanks to the drought. I realized quickly that I needed to add ferts a lot more often as my plants developed nutrient deficiencies very quickly. I guess clay would of been better in a drought.

I give my plants a triple 13 every week now and they are doing very well as I planted late. They did nothing but turn ugly colors when I used the 5-4-3 or 4-5-5 organic ferts that didn't seem to do anything but were fantastic in clay.

You should have tilled in sand, decomposed granite and compost into the clay.
Over time the soil where your garden is will be higher the the surrounding area.

This would loosen up the soil and allow it to drain.
There are a thousand ways to improve soil and they all work in the right areas and soils.

My clay soil if you dig a hole will drain fairly fast, in an hour or so.
If you have a potters clay type soil you would be best putting in raised beds or soil berms.

Here is something that works and will last for many years.

Worth

Attachment 28890

[Cole_Robbie]

Originally Posted by feldon30

Digging a hole in a clay soil base and then filling it with good soil can create a "bathtub" effect. If you have heavy rains, the "bowl" will fill with water and could take hours/days to drain.

I always advise raised beds for clay soil. Eventually, the organic matter you add will improve the drainage and tilth of the soil below, but in the meantime, you have risen above any drainage problems.

What about a summer like the one we just had in the U.S.? When it's 110 degrees, does the sun make the roots too hot in a raised bed? The answer seems to be no, because the roots go down into the soil below the bed. But if we are depending on roots in soil anyway, the raised bed seems more like it's just flood insurance. I could see how the better soil would get seedlings started more easily, but all of those shallow roots are not the ones that matter later on in the summer for a big tomato plant. It's the deep ones that count, especially in a drought like we just had.

For next year, I was thinking about using some buckets with the bottom cut out as a miniature raised bed for each plant. I'd still dig a hole in the clay below it and fill that with a mix of manure, soil, and fertilizers. But hopefully the above-ground roots of the plant would be enough insurance to keep it alive in case of a flood. As soon as it hits 100 degrees, the roots in the bucket will start to cook. Maybe I can shade them with straw or more dirt when that happens. We shall see.

I do think that our modern weather is going to change standard practices, though. For example, it's a given in my area that melons should be planted in ridges on black plastic mulch to warm the soil. But when it's 95+ degrees every day after planting like it was this year, I think the ridges are a waste of time and possibly even a detriment.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

What about a summer like the one we just had in the U.S.?

When it's 110 degrees, does the sun make the roots too hot in a raised bed?

No but when its 110 there is no use trying to grow tomatoes anyway.

The answer seems to be no, because the roots go down into the soil below the bed.

Not necessarily many people put raised beds on concrete and have huge plants.

But if we are depending on roots in soil anyway, the raised bed seems more like it's just flood insurance.

Not in my area water doesn't stand anywhere on my property.
The only reason I use them is due to the poor soil and tree roots that invade everything. Also for weed control.

I could see how the better soil would get seedlings started more easily, but all of those shallow roots are not the ones that matter later on in the summer for a big tomato plant.
Yes they are, the shallow roots from the surface to about 4 to 6 inches are where the plant gets its nutrients.
Most all plants get there nutrients from the surface of the soil.
As in the Amazon where the soil is very poor, just look at those trees.

It's the deep ones that count, especially in a drought like we just had.

Not really I have pulled plants from shallow soil of about 6 inches or so with no deep roots. These plants laid out on the ground were 10 to 15 feet long.

For next year, I was thinking about using some buckets with the bottom cut out as a miniature raised bed for each plant. I'd still dig a hole in the clay below it and fill that with a mix of manure, soil, and fertilizers. But hopefully the above-ground roots of the plant would be enough insurance to keep it alive in case of a flood. As soon as it hits 100 degrees, the roots in the bucket will start to cook. Maybe I can shade them with straw or more dirt when that happens. We shall see.

I do think that our modern weather is going to change standard practices, though. For example, it's a given in my area that melons should be planted in ridges on black plastic mulch to warm the soil. But when it's 95+ degrees every day after planting like it was this year, I think the ridges are a waste of time and possibly even a detriment.

Your weather will be fine next year or the one after that.
I had a friend that ran around last year boo hooing about how this year was going to be worse.
It didn't even come close this year to what it was last year.

One thing in life I have learned to deal with is change, change is constant.
Australia has been dealing with whacky weather for thousands of years and it is still there.

Worth

[chancethegardener]

Worth, do the invasive tree roots also attack your raised beds? Here, I have a serious issue of roots attacking my raised beds. I end up cleaning the roots at the end of each season but they keep coming. With my new beds, I purchased bed liners to keep them from sending shoots into the beds. This resolved my problem mostly but I don't want to use bed liners with all raised beds because if I use liners, then I can't use stakes to support indeterminate tomatoes (I don't want to damage the liners). Would it be helpful if, instead of liners, I laid cardboard underneath the beds to divert the roots to outside the beds? After all, cardboard is biodegradable.

[Diriel]

In my research for hot weather, dry areas, A raised bed with a sub water system is a great way to minimize water loss. Another plus is that you can add liquid fert into the water.

Gary

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by chancethegardener

Worth, do the invasive tree roots also attack your raised beds? Here, I have a serious issue of roots attacking my raised beds. I end up cleaning the roots at the end of each season but they keep coming. With my new beds, I purchased bed liners to keep them from sending shoots into the beds. This resolved my problem mostly but I don't want to use bed liners with all raised beds because if I use liners, then I can't use stakes to support indeterminate tomatoes (I don't want to damage the liners). Would it be helpful if, instead of liners, I laid cardboard underneath the beds to divert the roots to outside the beds? After all, cardboard is biodegradable.

I put double layered vapor barrier down before I put in the soil in one bed.
That bed is made from 2x12's raised off the ground 8 inches or so.

The other bed I dug a hole about 18 inches deep and filled it with rotted leaves and fire wood.
On top of that I used 2x12's about 2 inches from the ground.

Tree roots will be dealt with with a trench around the beds 2 feet deep filled with concrete.

My third bed, 'soon to come, will be on a reinforced concrete slab 2 inches thick.

A plus is the soil withdrew from the sides of the boards which in turn allows the wood to stay relatively dry.
This in no way has hindered the plants, they are on a daily drip and the excess bottom run out provides a home for the toads and lizards and waters my two loquat trees.

Worth

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Diriel

In my research for hot weather, dry areas, A raised bed with a sub water system is a great way to minimize water loss. Another plus is that you can add liquid fert into the water.

Gary

You got that right.

Worth

[Cole_Robbie]

re: I could see how the better soil would get seedlings started more easily, but all of those shallow roots are not the ones that matter later on in the summer for a big tomato plant.

Yes they are, the shallow roots from the surface to about 4 to 6 inches are where the plant gets its nutrients.
Most all plants get there nutrients from the surface of the soil.
As in the Amazon where the soil is very poor, just look at those trees.

I had plants that were watered with a hose every day and plants that were watered with drip all night once a week. The hose-watered plants were great until it got hot. Then the tomatoes got thick skins and a sour taste. I stopped picking them, to eat or sell, because fruit from the other plants was so much better.

I read an interview with a guy in New York state who was trying to commercially produce heirlooms. He mentioned that one of the lessons he learned was to stop watering the plants after about a month or so of being out. If it didn't rain at all, he would still water them, but only every week or two. He said that caused them to drive roots deep into the ground, and that made the tomato taste better. I seemed to have duplicated his experience. Most of the nutrients might come from shallow roots, but if that is all the plant has, it will not produce a very good tomato. The big hole under a plant in clay helps with that, but at the same time, it's a gamble that it won't rain too much, fill the hole with water, and rot your roots.

when its 110 there is no use trying to grow tomatoes anyway.

Well, if it's 110 all the time, yes. I know I can't set new fruit on days like that. But I am interested in just surviving the intermittent periods of that weather. We were over 100 a lot this year, and I am still picking tomatoes, at least to eat if not to sell.

I'm going to try to set my cages up with some sort of shade next year. Guessing at the future weather is a gamble for anyone, but my money is on the hot side. Illinois felt like Texas this year, and I think that pattern will continue.