Can Ind, Det, and Semi Det cross

[zeroma]

I guess the title says it all, but I'm wondering if a tomato with indeterminate growth can cross with a determinate plant? And if so does it become Semi-det?

Thanks

[Redbaron]

Yes they can cross, but I am not so sure they will make a semi det. I believe a separate gene is involved with semi det. Maybe a breeder can confirm that.

[zeroma]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Yes they can cross, but I am not so sure they will make a semi det. I believe a separate gene is involved with semi det. Maybe a breeder can confirm that.

Thanks...I'll wait for more posts. Always appreciate answers to my inquisitive mind.

[Tom Wagner]

Celebrity is a classic semi-determinate hybrid tomato.

I am not saying that just because I looked it up on the 'net. I have had 30 years experience with it ever since I first received "Breeder's Seed" back in 1983. I was impressed how it yielded well and continued to yield well throughout the season near Lake Contrary, Missouri. The next year I grew 122 plants of the F-2 to validate what I had suspected. The segregation ratio was 1:2:1.....one fourth were determinate, one half were semi-determinate and one fourth were indeterminate! Those plants were grown out North East of St. Joseph, MO. Another segregation was occurring with Jointless pedicels. Same ratio of 1:2:1 but only one fourth were visible as jointless.

Conclusion? One parent was a determinate, medium early, jointless, nematode resistant, concentrated set, super firm, with deep globe fruit size a bit smaller than 3 inches. It was almost a machine harvest type but more round and tastier than a roma type so often used in making juice and paste products.

The other parent was indeterminate, larger oblate fruits, jointed, nematode susceptible, slightly less firm, tastier, and later maturity.

VF1F2NTASt is the resistance package of the hybrid.....which meant both parents were likely VFFTand perhaps a few more traits.

Did I keep pure breeding lines of those segregations? Yes and I have used them in further breeding as well.

Semi-determinates can be strong determinates to strong semi-determinates depending on the varieties used in the cross. The hybrid Shady Lady is one of the latter.

There is a very good reason that semi-determinates were successfully marketed as hybrids. A hybrid is just darn near the only way to get that type of growth pattern. Instead of producing fruits all at once it produces over a longer period but still ripens more dependably than an indeterminate. The growers in California that I worked with really like my hybrids using the advanced filial levels of Celebrity in hybrids. Those growers would plant semi-determinate varieties for the mature green tomato harvest and then ripen the fruits with ethylene. F-1 Celebrity was not a good fit because the growers wanted an all at once harvest-able tomato. One of my hybrids I made with a stable version of Celebrity was favored by the company I worked for in 1996 as a consulting breeder. I have stable seed of that hybrid I now call "THE SUMMER OF '96" and that seed will be available with my seed business in Hawaii soon.

One of the glaring inequalities of the Heirloom movement is that we usually don't have the classic determinate x indeterminate hybrids available. I am working on making that a growing reality. Because so many other genes can utilized in making all kinds of growth habits....the future is still awaiting us. Don't ask me about my plans to clone outstanding tomato hybrids, backcrosses, segregates, etc. This will be...if I live long enough....the selection of a one out of a million types of breeding lines to keep a single plant for meristem increase.

Tom Wagner

[Redbaron]

Thanks Tom. I learned something new.

[travis]

Tom Wagner's detailed info on the subject, with the excellent example given of his Celebrity growouts, is valuable information. Very informative. Thanks, Tom.

Now, I will have to grow out and observe larger blocks of the Mozark x Sioux cross I've been working with, because I have stumbled onto semi-determinate recombinations in the F2s and F3s in spite of only growing a handful of filials each of the last few years.

In the first 3 F2 plants I grew, I lucked out with one indeterminate, one determinate, and one semi-determinate. I assume the "semi-determinate" trait came from Sioux, because the Mozark line I grow is fully determinate. Since Tom indicates that F1 hybrid is practically the only way to get semi-determinate, then I can only hope the semi-determinate recombinations I have found in MoCross will stick. If not, I guess I'll have to enjoy them where I find them in the F2s, F3s, and F4s. We shall see.

At present I'm up to F5 in the MoCross recombinations. Since the F2s, I also found fully determinate recombinations that yield 40+ tomatoes all at once just like the Mozark, along with compact indeterminates that yield all season, and again the semi-determinates that perform very much like Celebrity, only having smaller tomatoes in general, and tastier.

As an aside, I think Celebrity now comes in another version which is uniform ripening, and I think also jointless pedicels. I bought some seed from Rupp Seed, and will recheck to see if indeed it is jointless.

Thanks again, Tom, for the detailed and informative post. It will be very helpful as I work with semi-determinate stuff, which I think is way more practical than the massive indeterminate types.

[Tom Wagner]

Thanks, Travis, for mentioning the MoCross Surprise.

A quick bit of history.....

Sioux - Parentage: Stokesdale x Allred. Indeterminate


Mozark - Parentage: Earliana, Lycopersicon pimpinellifolium, Break-O-Day, Bison, Greater Baltimore. Determinate vine.



Avalanche is a Mozark x Glamour hybrid. Semi-determinate



Glamour -: Burgess Crackproof x Sioux. Indeterminate


MoCross Surprise Hybrid . Parentage: Mozark x Sioux. Semi-determinate


I made these crosses for myself copying what had done …Avalanche and MoCross Surprise using the seed given to me by the breeder Dr. Lambeth. I had better crack resistance using Avalanche over MoCross Surprise. Believe me, I have used Sioux in some of my first crosses back in 1954 and when Glamour came along I dropped Sioux.

MoCross Surprise is a good example of how folks can make their own semi-determinate hybrids.


I sold many "Surprise" tomato plants with the garden center I helped managed in St. Joe, MO. during the 1970's. Customers seemed to think I knew something about tomatoes. We didn't use the prefix MoCross so much since there was a MoCross Supreme too.


Funny that I was pushing semi-determinates even back then. The customers would come in the store later in the year and brag about their tomatoes as if I had anything to do with it!

[travis]

Tom, here is the Mozark x Sioux (F1) fruit which I consider an improvement
over either parent both in flavor and fruit wall thickness/crack resistance.


Here are some F2 tomatoes from the indeterminate vine in 2011. These show the worst cracking I ever got
in a MoCross line, due to thunderstorms over nearly full ripe tomatoes.


Here's the cracked one cut open, so you can see some of the problems associated with drought followed by heavy rainstorms.


However, all in all, throughout the season, MoCross F2s were very nice tomatoes.
These are pretty typical of what I get from all the recombinations F2 thru F4 whether indeterminate, determinate, or semi-determinate. They're a bit puffy due to very dry weather.


I also tried the Avalanche cross same year I got the MoCross cross. I failed to get a take either A x B or B x A, but I did get the MoCross done, and still have many F1 seeds left from that.

I probably shouldn't call it MoCross, since it's a replication of a former F1 bred and marketed by Mizzou, and which they called MoCross Surprise. They also had one called MoCross Supreme which was the F1 combination of two of their breeding lines which I know nothing about. Maybe you do.

I've also been told that MoCross Surpise (F1) was sold in Missouri occasionally as "Missouri Surprise." Do you know anything about that?

As to your comment on Glamour. Yes, I find Glamour to be superior to Sioux, and I think Stokes' continued sale of Glamour may emphasize that opinion among other growers and bedding plant retailers.

I have seeds for Burgess Crackproof, but have never grown it or not seen the need to since Glamour exists. Any thoughts on that?

[Fusion_power]

One of the surprises of a determinate X indeterminate cross is the increase in production. It does not always work, but I've seen one particular line that routinely doubles production over either parent. There seems to be something going on with increase in total number of flowers plus increase in number of fruit set.

DarJones

[travis]

Darrel, what I found in several MoCross vines is that even the indeterminates produce inflorescences between lesser than the normal 3-internode spacings. Sometimes the inflorescences appear in the internode, and then again directly opposite the next or second to next node, rather than within the internode area.

When I have an indeterminate plant that routinely sets 3 to 4 tomatoes per cluster, and the internode spacing is reduced below the normal 3 internodes, that increases the yield substantially.

I'm not sure I can call such a vine "indeterminate," but when I suggested "semi-indeterminate" in another discussion, that was poo-pooed a bit.

However, this spacing I am talking about is different from the vines that I am calling semi-determinate, which shows a more determinate pattern of inflorescences. Maybe I'm off base on this. Or maybe as Tom is saying, the "semi-determinate" only is possible in the F1, and I may be getting all sorts of recombinations on the way to stability with the end results being only indeterminate and determinate.

Any thoughts?

[travis]

Also, I think I know the determinate line of which you speak that doubles production when crossed with certain indeterminates. If I'm correct in my assumption, are you finding the same results when it's crossed with lines other than the EPBxBB?

Is it an EB/LB resistant line x Brandywine? If so, I'm not growing the line which I think you speak of this year. I grew it last year.

I am growing a similar line and using the pollen to cross to various indeterminates in the garden. I hope I get some takes so I can see if the same applies with regard to high production semi-determinates.

I'm still not sure I understand, though, how you get a semi-determinate F1 when crossing a fully determinate x true indeterminate, when determinate is supposed to be recessive. What am I missing here?

Also, why is it unexpected or impossible to stabilize a semi-determinate as an OP?

[zeroma]

Thanks so much for all the information. Most of the crossing info is over my head, with a good general idea of what you just explained.

Please explain to me:

internode spacing

Conclusion? One parent was a determinate, medium early, jointless, nematode resistant, concentrated set, super firm, with deep globe fruit size a bit smaller than 3 inches. It was almost a machine harvest type but more round and tastier than a roma type so often used in making juice and paste products.

The other parent was indeterminate, larger oblate fruits, jointed, nematode susceptible, slightly less firm, tastier, and later maturity.

The differences I know between determinate VS indeterminate the 1st is the 'bush' type, stops growing, ripens together and then no more fruit. The 2nd is the 'vine' type, keeps growing until frost in frost areas, keeps making flowers and setting fruits, which all ripen and mature as the season goes by....

Is there a good picture someone can post of the joined and the jointless stem? I know I've read something about joints/but didn't consider it important at the time. Since I'm now an official tomato addict, I need more information on these wonderful plants!!!

Thanks so much for helping me understand all of this crossing stuff.

In my home garden space last year I only grew the volunteers from the first year. This year, year 3, I of course got more volunteers and think they are from chocolate cherry mostly and Rutgers. Just might get something else if I let them grow on in a new garden space.

What would you think a Chocolate Cherry and Rutgers might be like?

[Tom Wagner]

The cropped picture above shows the internode space as the area between leaves. Often indeterminate tomatoes have a longer space between leaves and set fruit on every third internode











Tomatoes that have a jointless pedicel come clean from the vine without a stem attached to the fruit.
Tomatoes that are jointed often are harvested with the stem attached whether or not that you want it. The abscission zone is clearly visible.

Jointless pedicel

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/1yy84UZ.jpg?1[/IMG]

Jointed pedicel…below

[WhippoorwillG]

Concentrated-set refers to the fruit setting and ripening in a much smaller window of time than do most indeterminates. Concentrated-set is common in many determinates, especially those bred for machine harvest.

[crmauch]

Originally Posted by Tom Wagner

Semi-determinates can be strong determinates to strong semi-determinates depending on the varieties used in the cross. The hybrid Shady Lady is one of the latter.

...

One of the glaring inequalities of the Heirloom movement is that we usually don't have the classic determinate x indeterminate hybrids available.

My previous reading has been that indeterminate was dominant to determinate. But from what I'm reading here and in some of the other postings, this is overly simplified. From what's being said depending on the varieties used in the cross a indet X det can yield something 'in between' a indet and a det, that cannot be stabilized as this trait is only shown when the genes are heterozygous?

Since 'semi-determinate' seems cross based would that mean that Ind is only dominant to Det based on other modifier genes?

I.e.
Homozygous for Ind -- Indet
Homozygous for Det -- Det
Heterozygous Ind, Det (certain set of modifier gene or genes) -- Ind
Heterozygous Ind, Det (different set(s) of modier gene or genes) -- Semi-det to Det

Does this seem to be the case?

Chris Mauchline