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Old October 20, 2012   #12
JLJ_
Tomatovillian™
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolyn137 View Post
So then, Estler's ML is totally unrelated to Radiator Charlie's ML ... not even same parent lines?

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It would seem so PV, wouldn't it, since we know the four varieties that were supposedly used for Charlie
s creation and we know the parents of the Estler one.

I will say that I knew about the Estler one when I was writing my book and I asked Jeff McCormack what he knew about it. I can't remember the exact words, but in essence he said he doubted it.

I didn't refer to it or include it in my book and at that time I hadn't yet grown it.

And knowing Jeff, I don't think the fact that he was th e one who I think interviewed Charlie to get the story he put in the SESE catalog , that has been so widely disseminated, would alter his view b'c of that. But he never told me WHY he doubted it and at this point I think we have two stories re ML and it indicates two different ML's, at least on the face of it it does to me.

Old thread -- and there have been others such as

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?p=307016

but this older one deals more directly with something that has puzzled me -- why are two apparently unrelated tomatoes going by the same name?

My understanding of the origins is something like this:

Radiator Charlie's beginning parent was a German Johnson, surrounded by the best other large-tomato-producing plants he could find in the area at the time -- 3 each of Beefsteak (possibly Ponderosa), Italian, and English tomatoes, planted in a circle around the German Johnson. They cross pollinated with the German Johnson naturally, assisted by Charlie taking pollen from the outer circle tomatoes with a baby ear syringe and dusting the German Johnson blossoms.

Perhaps the specific varieties that formed the outer ring are known, but my impression is that the outer ring tomatoes were not necessarily 3 each of particular varieties of tomatoes, but were rather three each of the largest representatives he could find of three types of tomatoes grown locally, and that there is not specific data about their varieties or whether or not the three of each type were from same or different sources. The objective seemed to be to add the best attributes of these three types to the German Johnson.

Then, as I understand it, he saved seeds from the center German Johnson tomato, and used those seedlings to repeat the procedure, with the strongest seedling in the center, surrounded by nine of the best of his other seedlings, repeating it for five or six or seven years, until he was happy with his results.

Development was in the 1930's and serious sales in the 1940's?

Name was initially "Radiator Charlie's Tomato" with "Mortgage Lifter" added later -- perhaps after he had used tomato proceeds to pay off his house?


One account of the Radiator Charlie story:

http://www.tomatogeek.com/2010/08/04...-tomato-story/

This interview references the 1980's taped discussion between "Radiator" Charlie Byles and his grandson:

http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.ht...38&segmentID=8

Included in this page is description of Jeff McCormack's first information about Mortgage Lifter:

http://www.southernexposure.com/sout...s-ezp-145.html

And info later published in the catalog presumably from communication with Byles, placing development in the early 1930's

http://www.southernexposure.com/mort...-g-p-1224.html



Concerning Estler's Mortgage Lifter and allegations that it was earlier than Radiator Charlie's Mortgage Lifter -- info quoted in this thread was:

"The article is in the GOLDENSEAL magazine summer 1994,volume 20,no.2. West Virginia Traditional Life titled "A Man and His Tomato". It has some excellent pictures.

The date is 1922. It was a cross between the Ponderosa Pink and the Pritchard. In 1932 the term "Mortgage Lifter" was registered. The story was written by the Cabell County [WV] extension agent, John Marra. "

In various threads here, several have indicated preference for the taste of Estler's -- and of course being a Marglobe "grandchild" would give it an edge.

But without making any suggestion at all about the relative quality of Radiator Charlie's vs. Estler's . . . surely it isn't too hard to imagine why Jeff McCormack might have expressed some doubts about a history that places a descendant of Pritchard in 1922? Or even 1932?

I don't believe there was any Pritchard until 1932, when Scarlet Topper was renamed Pritchard after its recently deceased developer . . . but even Scarlet Topper (child of Cooper's Special and Marglobe) was apparently only released for test growing in during the 1931 growing season.

Is it not difficult to imagine how a cross between Ponderosa Pink and Pritchard could have been stabilized and released as early as reported? Which does not mean the dates given weren't sincerely believed by those citing them -- but certainly suggests that a stable Ponderosa Pink x Pritchard cross could only have come into existence at a later date -- equal to or later than the dates cited for Radiator Charlie's Tomato.

The only connection in the ancestry of these two tomatoes seems to be the possibility that both include Ponderosa among their ancestors -- but that's much less connection than there is between Marglobe and Rutgers or any of the other Marglobe children, for example. So -- shouldn't these two essentially unrelated tomatoes be carrying different variety names, rather than names that suggest that they are different strains of the same tomato?
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