Quote:
Originally Posted by BigVanVader
So what did you use to get the determinate gene? The only semi-det I see is Black Sea Man and not even sure if that color is black. I don't see any fully determinate. Seems like that would make things really hard.
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Yeah one of the reasons I was determined to create some determinate black lines, is because I couldn't find one to work with. I've grown "Black Sea Man" from three sources and none were determinate. I am okay with a "semi-determinate" condition - I mean, the sp/sp gene is present to produce the high fruit to shoot ratio (one or two leaves between clusters up to terminal bud). Even though the number of leaves between clusters varies a lot. If the plant will extend itself by putting out new shoots from the terminal tip, that's fine by me too. Where even a compact indeterminate will always have three leaves between every cluster, so will have a lower fruit to shoot ratio.
The Black Nipper cherry was my first determinate, the sp gene came from the mother Napoli a Fiaschetto which is a tasty red pointy saladette sized fruit, crossed with Black Cherry. N a F incidentally is a perfect-for-me medium sized determinate with sturdy and healthy foliage/stem traits. Not especially early, about the same as Black Cherry.
Both Rodney and Skipper are from a cross between the determinate Black Nipper F2 and an F1 of Zolotoe Serdste X Black Early. Zolotoe Serdtse is "semi-determinate" as well, but I don't think those genes played a role since these genes are tightly linked to Beta orange and I didn't find any Beta in the F1 with Rod and Skip.
So the determinate gene and maternal DNA (chloroplast and mitochondrial) also comes from Napoli a Fiaschetto in these lines.
Incidentally there was an indeterminate "beef" type in the Rodney F2 I grew out - very flat and ruffled with lovely silky texture and sweet taste, but the downside, a lot of fruit deformities. So it's not impossible that another good determinate could be found with bigger fruit among those F2 seeds, but there are so many different size and shape genes that what you get at that stage is a total crapshoot and would take a lot of space. This is where farmers get leery of playing with unstable genetic stages, because it may affect marketable crop and a loss of needed income.
The Sundog beefs are from a cross of Zolotoe Serdtse X Indian Stripe. So the Beta and also the determinate gene in that one came from ZS, black beef shape from IS. Did not find the sp/sp until F3 and didn't recognize it until nearly end of season as the plants were slowly doing their thing outdoors in the cool.
I wouldn't mind at all having a black determinate like Rodney but twice the size. It's not a bad place to start from, and cross with a great black beef, you should get 1/4 determinates in the F2. OTOH I don't know how many F2 determinates you would have to go through before finding great fruit in that package. If the quality defects that have cropped up in other determinate selections (small fruit, sour fruit, mealy fruit!, disease susceptibility) are due to a linkage that has been broken or bypassed already, then it may be relatively easy to cross to get larger beefs.
Optimism... all gardeners are optimists!
