Tomatoville® Gardening Forums - View Single Post - help fix over-nitrogen'ed buckets

paradajky · June 29, 2022

Incoming long post :p

I'm now back after a little over 1 week away. I spent down-time during travel researching this on the internet, and propose the following:
1. With certainty, the plants are stressed
2. Most likely issue: too much nitrogen
3. Less likely issue: medium is too water logged
4. Less likely issue: herbicide damage (i.e. "auxin")
5. Ruled out: curly top disease (all plants alive, not dead)

The good news, I seem to have many tomatoes, many blooms, no blossom drop, and no BER (yet).

Going to continue to update this thread as nothing more than future info for anyone who stumbles into this thread later. FWIW, I don't think there's a way to fix the situation at this point without a lot of work, which I don't have time for (e.g. bare-root the plants, etc). In retrospect, I probably should've quickly bare-rooted the plants, tossed the upper portion with fertilizer, and skipped the lowe's aged/composted steer manure. It's possible the ground cover bark or the sunshine #4 moss had some lingering herbicide, as they were not listed organic/omri.

Current status:
- twisting of new branches/leaves/stems continues
- a couple show extreme twisting at terminal point
- mature leaves unwind, and mostly point down
- thick, vigorous vine growth
- plenty of blooms
- many early nubby tomatoes, no signs of BER (yet?)

Here's the official 2022 planting history from my notes:
- seeds planted April 18, 2022 into 100% natural granulated DE medium
- transplanted May 14 into 4" pots with Sunshine #4 mix (lowe's version of promix)
- transplanted June 4 to final 5 gallon buckets that is made of 3 parts sunshine #4, 2 parts Gardener's/Kellog brand groundcover bark, 1 part perlite, 1/2 part aged steer manure from lowe's, 1.5 cups espoma dolomite lime (omri), and ring of 3-4 cups espoma tomato tone (omri) put near top, and buckets set onto rain-gutter grow system (variation of a SIP, self watering container, etc)
- June 20, I dug in 1/4cup espoma acidifier (sulpher) to half the plants (the duplicates of what I'm growing) as a test

Quick history:

The mix is based on Raybo's earthtainer measured to 5 gallon buckets. In 2021, I used that exact mix, with no steer manure. The plants struggled, and I had to supplement with fast-acting fertilizer. After watching several Larry Hall videos, I decided to add the steer manure (it's aged/composted according to the bag) and increase the fertilizer by one cup. In research, I have discovered the earthbox folks don't recommend using manure, as it may interfere with wicking component.

I first tried growing tomatoes in 2020, after spending time in 2019 researching, sewing some bags from weed barrier cloth to fit into some painfully holed buckets. These tomatoes grew well, but several of them exhibited similar characteristics I'm seeing now: thick vines, twisted flush growth. Other signed included mustant growth (stems forming from flowers, and flower forming at stem ends), few blooms, blossom drop, 50% BER, and mealy textured fruit. I actually think part of the problem in 2020 was the result of my medium of choice (3-1-1 bark, peat, perlite), which dried out quickly in the small 4-5 gallon buckets that were lined with weed barrier cloth, and that ultimately led to channeling and so insufficient/poor watering.

2021 was a disaster year for me, nothing at my house grew more than 1-2 ft tall and died. The above mentioned buckets of 2021 were done at family's house as an experiment.

Back to 2022. At final transplant June 4th, the seedlings were 4-6" tall. Today, 3.5 weeks later, they are about 2.5 ft tall, with very thick vines for such a young age.

The research leads me to believe the plants are exhibiting extreme "epinasty", which is caused by stress of sorts. According to a WG/houzz posting, epinasty is caused by plant stress. Symptoms include twisted stems that grow out to point downward. I found multiple other people on the internet posting to places like reddit, having similar symptoms, if one searches for "tomato epinasty" or "twisted tomatoes".

Stress can be induced by herbicide. This is often the first thing anyone suggests, as apparently, tomatoes are highly sensitive to herbicide, even a trace amount sprayed by a neighbor that gets blown by can impact the plant. However, from what I've read, the plants might not recover, and the growth ends up very poor. That's not happening here, so I'm tempted to rule this out, but not quite yet.

Another cause of stress may be water logged soil, which leads to excessive ethylene gas, which results in twisted growth. Certainly possible, given the high-peat based medium, and the self-watering system. I measured this with my moisture meter, and get strange results.. some buckets show dry, others show wet, and a couple show moist. No correlation between intensity of twisting. Additionally, if this were the case, then I would think we'd see a lot more people having this kind of issue who grow in containers with a thick medium like peat.

Too much nitrogen can also cause stress and similar sypmtoms, according to U Missouri. In fact, the description matches exactly what I experienced in 2020. "The most likely causes are nitrogen being too high and potassium being too low. Nitrogen should be in the range of 4 to 5.5% in the leaf tissue. High nitrogen will also cause missed flower clusters (flower abortion), vegetative shoots at the ends of flower clusters, and a curling under or "balling up" of the tops of plants." In this case, I'm seeing the curling, but so far, no bloom drop and it'll be another 4-6 weeks before any tomatoes are ripe to tell how the texture is. I can try to take a sample from some buckets and send in for a soil test.. it costs $75 to do it, but I'm not sure how to get the soil, how deep to go in the bucket, and how not to destroy roots in the process. I may leave this for the end, to see whether I should reuse this soil next year. This post here on reddit is pretty clear to the excessive fertilization issue, and similar to what I experienced in 2021.

What I wonder is whether other forms of stress can cause such growth? My plants are in the area that gets most sun, and, there are glass railings at the patios above which reflect down and cause strong sunlight pockets for a couple hours mid-day. The plants do "wilt" during this time, and seem to show the curling worst in the afternoon, while early morning they appear much healthier and on the road to recovery. Note, I cannot move the tomatoes from this place.

That's what I've got now. I've got more pictures, but have to get to work, will upload later. For purposes of documentation and in the hopes it helps someone in the future, I'll update this thread as anything interesting develops.

June 29, 2022	#24
paradajky Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2021 Location: Coastal Southern CA Posts: 164	Incoming long post :p I'm now back after a little over 1 week away. I spent down-time during travel researching this on the internet, and propose the following: 1. With certainty, the plants are stressed 2. Most likely issue: too much nitrogen 3. Less likely issue: medium is too water logged 4. Less likely issue: herbicide damage (i.e. "auxin") 5. Ruled out: curly top disease (all plants alive, not dead) The good news, I seem to have many tomatoes, many blooms, no blossom drop, and no BER (yet). Going to continue to update this thread as nothing more than future info for anyone who stumbles into this thread later. FWIW, I don't think there's a way to fix the situation at this point without a lot of work, which I don't have time for (e.g. bare-root the plants, etc). In retrospect, I probably should've quickly bare-rooted the plants, tossed the upper portion with fertilizer, and skipped the lowe's aged/composted steer manure. It's possible the ground cover bark or the sunshine #4 moss had some lingering herbicide, as they were not listed organic/omri. Current status: - twisting of new branches/leaves/stems continues - a couple show extreme twisting at terminal point - mature leaves unwind, and mostly point down - thick, vigorous vine growth - plenty of blooms - many early nubby tomatoes, no signs of BER (yet?) Here's the official 2022 planting history from my notes: - seeds planted April 18, 2022 into 100% natural granulated DE medium - transplanted May 14 into 4" pots with Sunshine #4 mix (lowe's version of promix) - transplanted June 4 to final 5 gallon buckets that is made of 3 parts sunshine #4, 2 parts Gardener's/Kellog brand groundcover bark, 1 part perlite, 1/2 part aged steer manure from lowe's, 1.5 cups espoma dolomite lime (omri), and ring of 3-4 cups espoma tomato tone (omri) put near top, and buckets set onto rain-gutter grow system (variation of a SIP, self watering container, etc) - June 20, I dug in 1/4cup espoma acidifier (sulpher) to half the plants (the duplicates of what I'm growing) as a test Quick history: The mix is based on Raybo's earthtainer measured to 5 gallon buckets. In 2021, I used that exact mix, with no steer manure. The plants struggled, and I had to supplement with fast-acting fertilizer. After watching several Larry Hall videos, I decided to add the steer manure (it's aged/composted according to the bag) and increase the fertilizer by one cup. In research, I have discovered the earthbox folks don't recommend using manure, as it may interfere with wicking component. I first tried growing tomatoes in 2020, after spending time in 2019 researching, sewing some bags from weed barrier cloth to fit into some painfully holed buckets. These tomatoes grew well, but several of them exhibited similar characteristics I'm seeing now: thick vines, twisted flush growth. Other signed included mustant growth (stems forming from flowers, and flower forming at stem ends), few blooms, blossom drop, 50% BER, and mealy textured fruit. I actually think part of the problem in 2020 was the result of my medium of choice (3-1-1 bark, peat, perlite), which dried out quickly in the small 4-5 gallon buckets that were lined with weed barrier cloth, and that ultimately led to channeling and so insufficient/poor watering. 2021 was a disaster year for me, nothing at my house grew more than 1-2 ft tall and died. The above mentioned buckets of 2021 were done at family's house as an experiment. Back to 2022. At final transplant June 4th, the seedlings were 4-6" tall. Today, 3.5 weeks later, they are about 2.5 ft tall, with very thick vines for such a young age. The research leads me to believe the plants are exhibiting extreme "epinasty", which is caused by stress of sorts. According to a WG/houzz posting, epinasty is caused by plant stress. Symptoms include twisted stems that grow out to point downward. I found multiple other people on the internet posting to places like reddit, having similar symptoms, if one searches for "tomato epinasty" or "twisted tomatoes". Stress can be induced by herbicide. This is often the first thing anyone suggests, as apparently, tomatoes are highly sensitive to herbicide, even a trace amount sprayed by a neighbor that gets blown by can impact the plant. However, from what I've read, the plants might not recover, and the growth ends up very poor. That's not happening here, so I'm tempted to rule this out, but not quite yet. Another cause of stress may be water logged soil, which leads to excessive ethylene gas, which results in twisted growth. Certainly possible, given the high-peat based medium, and the self-watering system. I measured this with my moisture meter, and get strange results.. some buckets show dry, others show wet, and a couple show moist. No correlation between intensity of twisting. Additionally, if this were the case, then I would think we'd see a lot more people having this kind of issue who grow in containers with a thick medium like peat. Too much nitrogen can also cause stress and similar sypmtoms, according to U Missouri. In fact, the description matches exactly what I experienced in 2020. "The most likely causes are nitrogen being too high and potassium being too low. Nitrogen should be in the range of 4 to 5.5% in the leaf tissue. High nitrogen will also cause missed flower clusters (flower abortion), vegetative shoots at the ends of flower clusters, and a curling under or "balling up" of the tops of plants." In this case, I'm seeing the curling, but so far, no bloom drop and it'll be another 4-6 weeks before any tomatoes are ripe to tell how the texture is. I can try to take a sample from some buckets and send in for a soil test.. it costs $75 to do it, but I'm not sure how to get the soil, how deep to go in the bucket, and how not to destroy roots in the process. I may leave this for the end, to see whether I should reuse this soil next year. This post here on reddit is pretty clear to the excessive fertilization issue, and similar to what I experienced in 2021. What I wonder is whether other forms of stress can cause such growth? My plants are in the area that gets most sun, and, there are glass railings at the patios above which reflect down and cause strong sunlight pockets for a couple hours mid-day. The plants do "wilt" during this time, and seem to show the curling worst in the afternoon, while early morning they appear much healthier and on the road to recovery. Note, I cannot move the tomatoes from this place. That's what I've got now. I've got more pictures, but have to get to work, will upload later. For purposes of documentation and in the hopes it helps someone in the future, I'll update this thread as anything interesting develops. Last edited by paradajky; June 29, 2022 at 11:45 AM.