[travis]

Interesting stuff, TZ and Carolyn. I agree generally. But my observations were more in direct response to the questions asked initially about hybrid vigor and potential bottlenecking if not saving seed from several plants. I guess I saw those as the two questions.

Again, I see hybrid vigor clearly exhibited in many custom tomato crosses I have made. I'm talking about vigor in growth, vine health and production. Not necessarily flavor or fruit qualities like Brix which I have never measured, meatiness, seediness, wall thickness, those kinds of things. Just growth vigor, plant health and fruit production. I see it so I believe it. I'm guessing professional breeders can answer to whether there actually is hybrid vigor exhibited with regard to other characteristics.

I agree that saving seed from several fruit from the same plant waters down stray cross pollinations. I agree that saving seeds from several plants of the same variety lessens the effect of possibly saved F2 seed.

But shouldn't the discovery of an F1 plant in a block of open pollinated vines been made prior to saving seed? I mean by a keenly observant seed saver?

And I'd have to ask, in general, how many plants of the same variety do you think the average amateur tomato hobbyist grows to save and trade seeds from? Two? Four? So how much bottlenecking are we dealing with. Or is bottlenecking even a concern in self-pollinating species really?

I prefer to save seeds from several tomatoes off the same vine and even if growing multiple vines of the same variety, I prefer to save seeds from only the best single vine or couple of vines in each variety.

If the questions were asked about an active outcrosser like corn, I'd have a whole different outlook on hybrid vigor and bottlenecking. But the questions were about tomatoes.