Coeur d'Albenga Tomato
 

I'm trying to track down seeds for an Italian paste tomato with a French name. I've seen it online as "Coeur d'Albenga". Here's a link to two pages about this tomato with photos:

[url]http://tomodori.com/fichephoto.php?nom=Coeur%20D%20albenga[/url]

[URL]http://tomodori.com/photo/main.php?g2_itemId=975[/URL]

Tomodori.com doesn't seem to sell seeds. Nor is Coeur d'Albenga listed in the current Seed Savers collection either. I'd like to see if I may be able to track seeds down through another channel. Some one on this list may have suggestions. I've already e-mailed Carolyn Male directly to see if she may have some ideas.

If anyone on here has any other ideas for possible seed sources, would you let me know? Thanks so much!

Cheers,


John Gasbarre

John, I expected to answer your PM which I just saw but I see you've already posted about this variety. I know you've described yourself as obsessive compulsive, :) but in the future I would appreciate it if you either PMed me and waited for an answer or didn't PM me and just posted it publicaly so anyone could answer, b'c I hate to do two posts on the same topic especially when I have to fetch links.

Thanks for understanding.:)

it's known by several names:

[URL]http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Cuneo_Giant_Pear[/URL]

[URL]http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Piriform[/URL]

There have been several threads about it at other message sites and one here at Tville in the pictures Forum by Moonglow. Its' best known as Piriform/ And yes I know Tomodori, he posts here from time to time, and no, no seeds are sold.

Specifically, Baker Creek was distributing seeds that were Piriform and not the German Red Strawberry that it was supposed to be, They deleted it and contacted their seed supplier.

Territorial Seed was also distributing Piriform and IDing it as Coure di Bui, which it is not .

Reimer;s seeds showed the same picture and Ided it as Coure di Bui, which it is not, and deleted it ASAP.

The only place that correctly IDed it is Johnny's Selected seeds where they descirbed it as being from Italy, etc. And those who have grown it really like it.

So if you want seeds you need to get them from Johnny's Selected Seeds or you might try Tania, I didn't look at her seeds available list to see if she listed it.

[quote=carolyn137;139371]

[Coeur d'Albenga is] known by several names:

[URL]http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Cuneo_Giant_Pear[/URL]

[URL]http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Piriform[/URL]

[/quote]


Carolyn:

You're saying Cuneo Giant Pear, Piriform and Coeur d'Albenga are [U]identical[/U]? I can certainly see the similarities between the first two, but I'm not convinced they're identical to the latter. Coeur d'Albenga seems a far closer visual match with New Zealand Paste than it does with either Cuneo Giant Pear or Piriform.

I was aware that Johnny's offers a cultivar called Piriform, but I didn't realize that many of these piriform tomatoes were the same cultivar. Since piriform simply means 'pear shaped,' one could easily assume this is a classification of tomatoes, much like with oxhearts. I recall reading Goldman's Italian American described as being a piriform tomato--but maybe not the cultivar Piriform. Possibly Johnny's Piriform is simply a cultivar of a piriform type of tomato, much like having a cultivar of beefsteak tomato simply called Beefsteak.

Confusing? You bet.

What I'm most interested in knowing is specifically how and by whom it was determined that Coeur d'Albenga, Cuneo Giant Pear and Piriform are identical. I'm guessing whoever made this call would have to have had plants/fruit of all three of these to be able to compare the plants and fruit side-by-side, no? If these three are the same, couldn't cultivars such as Liguria and New Zealand Paste just as easily be additional redundancies? How about Goldman's Italian American?

Which are truly identical, and which are simply similar? My hunch tells me that of these five piriform-types that Piriform and Cuneo Giant Pear (and possibly Liguria) are the same; that Coeur d'Albenga and New Zealand Paste are identical but different from the first group; and that both Goldman's Italian American and Cuore di Bue are different cultivars altogether. But I'm guessing I'll have to plant them all and to eat a bunch of tomatoes to know for sure.

I have to admit that the Coeur d'Albenga look pretty darn delicious.



Johnny's Piriform:

[IMG]http://www.johnnyseeds.com/images/catalog/large/2766_lg.jpg[/IMG]

Cuneo Giant Pear:

[IMG]http://tatianastomatobase.com/w/images/thumb/2/24/Cuneo1.jpg/450px-Cuneo1.jpg[/IMG]

Coeur d'Albenga:

[IMG]http://tomodori.com/photo/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1683&g2_serialNumber=6[/IMG] [IMG]http://tomodori.com/photo/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1707&g2_serialNumber=6[/IMG] [IMG]http://tomodori.com/photo/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1698&g2_serialNumber=6[/IMG] [IMG]http://tomodori.com/photo/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1704&g2_serialNumber=6[/IMG]

New Zealand Paste:

[IMG]http://mitglied.lycos.de/rkraft/Tomatenfotos/New-Zealand-Paste.jpg[/IMG]

Cuore di Bue

[IMG]http://www.tandmpics.com/240/0/gww0434.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2642/3720645155_67d76df879.jpg[/IMG]

Goldman's Italian American (just for comparison):

[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iGEMB19EWAU/ShKlxBc9S9I/AAAAAAAAAvs/l69Slz0UcF0/s1600/heirloom-tomoatoes-0908-13_lg-45724589.jpg[/IMG]



Any thoughts or feedback appreciated. Thanks.


John

The pictured Piriform, Couer d'Albenga, and Coure di Bue all three look identical to me. The pictured Piriform just isn't as ripe as the other two.

Mine is definitely Piriform (Johnny's). The base is not as wide Coeur d'Albenga. When my Piriform turns some color, I shall post an update.

[QUOTE=Lamb Abbey Orchards;139375]...

Confusing? You bet.


Any thoughts or feedback appreciated. Thanks.


John[/QUOTE]

Well, this has turned out to be an intriguing puzzle. I was the first to mention on iDig that my "German Red Strawberry" didn't seem quite right, in that they tapered the wrong way for a heart. In replying to me, Carolyn brought up the issue of 'Cuore di Bue' (several variations of the spelling) being distributed that did not appear to be a heart at all, but another pyriform (the shape, not the variety). Through a lengthy discourse, she pointed out that what Johnny's sells as 'Piriform' and what BC labeled as 'German Red Strawberry' and what Territorial labeled as 'Cuore di Bue' appeared to be the same tomato, likely coming from the same wholesale source.

Now enters yet another player, with yet another variation of the "Coeur" name, but a pyriform shape. However, in the excellent collection of photos posted, I notice little or no void space around the seed sacs in 'Coeur d'Albenga' which I have found prominent in my mislabeled GRS (likely 'Piriform').

I think the only logical solution is for everyone to pitch in and buy me a ticket to Italy, where I will scour the countryside of Liguria, seeking out the truth to this puzzle, eating tons of their delicious tomatoes both cooked and sliced, and buying tomato seed by the pound, which I will [b][i]carefully[/b][/i] label with the names that the locals who grow them use and bring them home to lavishly share with all those who contributed to my ticket and travel expenses. Fair, no? :yes:

Edited to Add:

John,

If you do find some seed for 'Coeur d'Albenga' I would be most delighted if you would let me know where you find them. Whatever the name is of what I have, I love it and want to find all of its siblings, cousins, black sheep, etc. :)

Italians generally favor tomatoes that retain green tops...So if you are waiting for them to "ripen", as in turn completely red, they may not have much flavor at that stage...
It has become harder to find varieties that stay green at the top, and Carolyn will correct me if I am wrong, but I think they have different genetic makeup than varieties that ripen red all at once...
Piriform looks to have that genetic makeup....
Many tomatoes taste much better with green shoulders, and you are missing much if you let them turn red...I think the solid red is an American hang up....
I have grown many of the giant pear strains and found them very similar...but I find dozens of the large pinks undistinguishable too...

Jeanne

Carolyn,

I'd still very much like to hear your thoughts about Coeur d'Albenga being the same as Cuneo Giant Pear and Piriform. I'm curious how you arrived at this conclusion. It would be helpful to know. Thanks.


John

[quote=jeffinsgf;139444]
John,

If you do find some seed for 'Coeur d'Albenga' I would be most delighted if you would let me know where you find them. Whatever the name is of what I have, I love it and want to find all of its siblings, cousins, black sheep, etc. :)[/quote]

Fun post, Jeff. Thanks for all of the background. It's really interesting stuff. I'll be curious to see if you ever make it to Liguria :)

I just received an e-mail this morning from a woman is France who is kind enough to send me some seeds from the Coeur d'Albenga in her garden. I plan to grow it out next year and will gladly provide you with whatever you seeds you'd like next Fall (2010).

Stay in touch!


John

[quote=Lamb Abbey Orchards;139542]Carolyn,

I'd still very much like to hear your thoughts about Coeur d'Albenga being the same as Cuneo Giant Pear and Piriform. I'm curious how you arrived at this conclusion. It would be helpful to know. Thanks.


John[/quote]

John, I arrived at the conclusion that they were either identical or very similar based on the links I gave you to Tania's website as well as knowing a lot more about Piriform and how it was misrepresented by several seed companies in the US, except not Johnny's, since I think the seed companies had Piriform misrepresented to them by a wholesale supplier.

The only way you're going to make any conclusions is by growing them out yourself in the same season I would think

As you can see at Tania's website links, and I know from experience, the same variety may have more than one name.

Jeanne, both the Italians and the Spanish prefer varieties with green shoulders, and yes, varieties that ripen up and don't have green shoulders have what's called the uniform ripening gene which has been transferred into all most all hybrids.

John,

Amazingly enough, Baker Creek's supplier has now told them that the mislabeled GRS is 'd'Albenga' (notice the "Coeur" is missing). The supplier is in Italy. I don't know more than that, but if you want some seed from these, I'll be happy to send them to you for a side by side with the ones that come from France. If you get a surplus from your "French Connection", I'll be happy to provide a dual site for the trial.

[quote=jeffinsgf;139583]John,

Amazingly enough, Baker Creek's supplier has now told them that the mislabeled GRS is 'd'Albenga' (notice the "Coeur" is missing). The supplier is in Italy. I don't know more than that, but if you want some seed from these, I'll be happy to send them to you for a side by side with the ones that come from France. If you get a surplus from your "French Connection", I'll be happy to provide a dual site for the trial.[/quote]

Jeff you saw my post at idig b'c I posted right after Randel did with the above information. and you saw that I asked him if BC still had some of those wrong variety seeds that they pulled.

You also saw me tell him that I knew someone at another message site who would be interested but wouldn't share that with that person, meaning John, until Randel got back to me, which he hasn't yet.

But stupiodly, I also forgot that you might well still have some seeds left that you could sharfe with John.:)

BUT, I see a problem.

Green Zone wrote:

(Probably the final word on our end, re the German Red Strawberry fiasco....

My supplier's supplier has discussed it with HIS supplier, in Italy, and their opinion is, that the GRS in question is probably a variety called d'Albenga. )

An OPINION on what it was is PROBABLY____________ isn't good enough for me. if they don't KNOW what it is they should say so. Pictures of this variety, well, read my response below

Carolyn Wrote in response:
Now that's terrifically interesting to me b'c at another message site someone is looking for that variety and can't find seeds anywhere.

Going from various sources of info it's been impossible to tell the difference between several varieties such as Piriform, Giant Cueno, Liguria and a few more and some of them are IDed as being the other, as in dual names for the same variety.

Soooooo, if you think what you have is d Albenga, and you still have seeds could I send this person to you for some seeds? I won't mention this to him until I see your response, either here or via a PM.

it still seems a bit strange to me that the same picture appeared at several sites IDed variously as GRS, Piriform and Cuore di Bui and only Johnny's correctly IDed it as Italian in origin as Piriform.

Whatever![IMG]http://idigmygarden.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]


*****

So I remain unconvinced. Look, if the same picture at several sites is the same and it's IDed as being GRS or Coure di Bui or Piriform, to me it means that there's total misrepresentation probably going back to Italy, b'c why would BC list it as GRS unless that's what the wholesale sheet said, and if the wholesale sheet said Cuor di Bui they'd get the same seeds, and if the sheet said Piriform they'd get the same seeds again.

I still say grow put as many lookalikes as you can in the same season and chose the ones you like best as compared with the one you're getting from France.

At least we tried John, but I think you can also see the iffiness of this situatiion.:roll:

[quote=jeffinsgf;139583]John,

Amazingly enough, Baker Creek's supplier has now told them that the mislabeled GRS is 'd'Albenga' (notice the "Coeur" is missing). The supplier is in Italy. I don't know more than that, but if you want some seed from these, I'll be happy to send them to you for a side by side with the ones that come from France. If you get a surplus from your "French Connection", I'll be happy to provide a dual site for the trial.[/quote]


Jeff:

I'd love the mislabled GRS. And I will grow them side-by-side with the Coeur d'Albenga I get from France, take pics of each, and send seeds back to you for both, if you like. Thanks so much. I don't know what I'll be getting from France, but if it's more than necessary for the 2 dozen plants I'd like to have, I'd gladly send you the extras. Otherwise, count on seeds at the end of the 2010 growing season for the Coeur d'Albenga.

I'll send you my mailing address separately.

Cheers,


John

Carolyn:

Thanks again for going to all of the extra effort to help. It's greatly appreciated!


John

[quote=Lamb Abbey Orchards;139625]Jeff:

I'd love the mislabled GRS. And I will grow them side-by-side with the Coeur d'Albenga I get from France, take pics of each, and send seeds back to you for both, if you like. Thanks so much. I don't know what I'll be getting from France, but if it's more than necessary for the 2 dozen plants I'd like to have, I'd gladly send you the extras. Otherwise, count on seeds at the end of the 2010 growing season for the Coeur d'Albenga.

I'll send you my mailing address separately.

Cheers,


John[/quote]

John, I'll take you up on that offer of seeds from both Wild Sweetie, per our other adventure b/c I'm not going to open that pack and remove seeds, as well as original seeds or seeds you save from Jeff's offer as well as the French one.

Just ask me for my home address at the right time for seed dispersal.;)