[QUOTE=Zone9b;586943]That Hands on Tomato Growing and Breeding Workshop surely sounds interesting. I would definitely be in the beginners section. :lol:
Larry[/QUOTE]

Ditto. Pretty cool Doc Hempel Hope you have a good turnout. Sounds interesting.

It will be fun, and sometimes it is more fun with fewer people. I have a couple people to train too. So it is a good opportunity for that.

[QUOTE=PhilaGardener;586931]Sometimes, it would seem some companies label varieties "hybrids" when they are nothing more than open pollinated lines. Sure cuts the cost of production and may dissuade the competition.[/QUOTE]

Is it legal to do that?

[QUOTE=PhilaGardener;586931]Sometimes, it would seem some companies label varieties "hybrids" when they are nothing more than open pollinated lines. Sure cuts the cost of production and may dissuade the competition.[/QUOTE]

That used to be the case for some seedv endors/companies,but if you've ever read versions one and two of Caraol Deppe's excellent books she speaks to this directly,and yes,it was done years ago,but i haven't heard of anything like that these days.

More likely is that someone will take an F1 hybrid and by selection try to create an OP from it,and that has been successful in some cases depending on the original parentage of the F1.

What you want to look for are her two How to breed vegetable books,the original and then the update one.

[url]https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1402&bih=791&q=Carol+Deppe+books&oq=Carol+Deppe+books&gs_l=img.12..0i24k1.3501.31683.0.37075.17.11.0.6.4.0.153.1283.0j11.11.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.14.1181...0j0i30k1j0i5i30k1j0i10i24k1.mZySN4W_iN4[/url]

and now the links

[url]https://www.google.com/#q=Carol+Deppe+books&hl=en[/url]

Carolyn




Carolyn

[QUOTE=NarnianGarden;586985]Is it legal to do that?[/QUOTE]

It's not that it is exactly legal, but no attorney for the government is going to pursue fraud charges over something like that. A consumer would have the right to sue civilly, but the best that would happen is that you would win your $3 back that you spent on the seeds. Damages must be foreseeable is the rule. So if you spend $3,000 on a garden to grow that $3 pack of seed, you may still only sue for the $3.

I'm not familiar with the exact EU ruling, but I know the legislation regarding labeling is quite strict... Consumers might not care to sue for a stray seed (happens a lot with any company), but fraudulent labeling and advertizing can mean sanctions to the company - they may have to pay fines if it can be proven they have willingly misled the consumer.

Threat of suit, though, is not the only reason that a seed company would avoid lying and saying that an OP is a hybrid.

The damage to the brand, for this type of lie, only increases with the success of a variety. And the likely hood that a "hybrid" would be outed as an OP only increases with success.

So, there are very strong reasons to not lie. The lie would be too easily proved, even if not in a court of law. Every gardener in the country could confirm a "fake" hybrid.

This is why I do not believe the practice of calling OPs hybrids is common, and why I do not believe that any large company, in particular, would be so stupid as to lie.

[QUOTE=Cole_Robbie;587068]It's not that it is exactly legal, but no attorney for the government is going to pursue fraud charges over something like that. A consumer would have the right to sue civilly, but the best that would happen is that you would win your $3 back that you spent on the seeds. Damages must be foreseeable is the rule. So if you spend $3,000 on a garden to grow that $3 pack of seed, you may still only sue for the $3.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes you have no choice in the matter.Crosman doesn't offer Crosman Early giant tomato anymore,so I have to grow it from saved seed.

Before I buy seeds (I am a hobbyist, not a seller of seeds) I always do a thorough Google on the tomato type (for hardiness and taste) and the seller's reputation (no time for junk seeds). I feel that if somebody wants to create a hybrid tomato to sell or share they should sets some realistic goals first. Is the tomato unique enough to be given a name.....Is it a good contribution to the tomato world....etc. Don't just create a hybrid tomato for your own self-affirmation and the world to just show that you know how create a hybrid tomato.

[QUOTE=Psalms441;590812]Before I buy seeds (I am a hobbyist, not a seller of seeds) I always do a thorough Google on the tomato type (for hardiness and taste) and the seller's reputation (no time for junk seeds). I feel that if somebody wants to create a hybrid tomato to sell or share they should sets some realistic goals first. Is the tomato unique enough to be given a name.....Is it a good contribution to the tomato world....etc. Don't just create a hybrid tomato for your own self-affirmation and the world to just show that you know how create a hybrid tomato.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I'm hoping to find a tomato variety that works very well in the fall season here in central florida. All I'm looking for is excellent productivity and good taste. I'd be happy.
Larry

Here are my hybrid vs. OP observations, for 2018 in our Bay Area wine country field.

1. Virtually all of our new-generation cherry tomato hybrids are much more productive and disease resistant than the OP Bumblebee and Tiger varieties we have released.

2. Of the OP varieties we have released -- Blush, Fuego Verde and Marzano Fire were the best performers

3. Our new generation hybrid beefsteaks also clearly out-perform both OP heirlooms and our own OP beefsteaks (Jazz and Orange Jazz).

4. The clear OP beefsteak exception, for production, disease resistance and vigor was Captain Lucky. It was significantly better than all other OP varieties, and performed at the level of our best new hybrid beefsteak variety. I have always been impressed with Millard Murdock's masterpiece, but this year we grew in such a manner that it's performance was absolutely striking and unmistakable.

Porter Dark Cherry
 

My north Texas 2018 results for OP and Hybrid...


Long ago I bought a plant named Porter Dark Cherry from Lowes (Bonnie Plants). It was labeled hybrid but I saved seeds anyway and these seeds came true the next Spring as have been the 8 or so following generations. It was my most disease resistant this year.


Also performing well were the hybrid seeds for Bush Big Boy that Burpee quit selling but I stocked up on and keep in the fridge. They were determinates and did well in Spring; not so well in the fall.



OP Amish Paste had an off year but I am guessing it is from the cherry tomatoes over running their space.


The other OP tomatoes were all OP determinates and did maybe 3 pounds each which I consider a fail. I hesitate to mention them because they have been very reliable over the years and are common names you all know.


I have not posted in a long time but was notified when this thread became active again. This topic does interest me and it has drawn me back in. Thanks for that.

[QUOTE=Fred Hempel;720587]Here are my hybrid vs. OP observations, for 2018 in our Bay Area wine country field.

1. Virtually all of our new-generation cherry tomato hybrids are much more productive and disease resistant than the OP Bumblebee and Tiger varieties we have released.

2. Of the OP varieties we have released -- Blush, Fuego Verde and Marzano Fire were the best performers

3. Our new generation hybrid beefsteaks also clearly out-perform both OP heirlooms and our own OP beefsteaks (Jazz and Orange Jazz).

4. The clear OP beefsteak exception, for production, disease resistance and vigor was Captain Lucky. It was significantly better than all other OP varieties, and performed at the level of our best new hybrid beefsteak variety. I have always been impressed with Millard Murdock's masterpiece, but this year we grew in such a manner that it's performance was absolutely striking and unmistakable.[/QUOTE]


Do you consider (1) as inevitable or is it more so by design? I mean if genes were stacked deliberately to get disease resistance, it stands to reason they will outperform.


Regarding OP's, do you find that they have better disease resistance in early generations of breeding( when less genetically stable), and that it is harder to find that by F5,6 and beyond? Or did the OP varieties you compared, simply have less in the way of disease resistance genes from the early stages? (less than tailored for resistance F1s I mean)


As regards productivity, I haven't been able to generalize about F1's being more productive and as I understand it, that is dependent on some very specific genes being present in the two parents. So I wondered, did you choose the F1 parents' genetics deliberately to get the 'extra productive' effect? And in the created OP's, would you generalize that there is a decline in vigor as they become closer to stable?

[QUOTE=OldHondaNut;720588]My north Texas 2018 results for OP and Hybrid...


Long ago I bought a plant named Porter Dark Cherry from Lowes (Bonnie Plants). It was labeled hybrid but I saved seeds anyway and these seeds came true the next Spring as have been the 8 or so following generations. It was my most disease resistant this year.
[/QUOTE]

I think calling OP varieties "hybrids" is a pretty common "error"

I have gotten tired of correcting websites offering things like "Hybrid Sunrise Bumblebee"

From what I am seeing in a Google search, I can not find any hybrid Porter cherry tomatoes. Seems like maybe a mis-labeling.

I’d like to find a Cherry OP or F1 that had significant nematode resistance. I grow in Raised Beds and Containers in Central Florida. The RBs always have a nematode issue, especially in the fall and it is strange that nematodes can be devastating in one RB but another RB a few feet away can produce the same variety of tomatoes well. The varieties that I am growing now that do well no matter how bad the nematodes are include Tomande F1 and Cosmonaut Volkov OP. Others like Brandywine Dark and Black Brandwine appear to do well with moderate nematode activity. I realize there are a number of F1 non-cherry varieties that are nematode resistant, but for me, those that I have grown have not produced the volume of tomatoes I would like.