Is there a list of dominant and recessive traits?
 

Hi,

I have been reading the posts in this forum, because I have become very interested in tomato genetics. I am not a scientist though, and the gene list is confusing, it doesn't tell me what traits are dominant or recessive or partially dominant or recessive. Maybe I have overlooked something, but I can't seem to see where that is.

I am growing out some tomatoes that has the temporary name Kelloggs Breakfast Heart F2. Mark Korney grew the F1, which was supposed to be Kelloggs Breakfast, but produced red heart shaped fruit on a RL plant.

I sowed 21 seeds and got 50/50 RL/PL seedlings. This suggests as far as I know that KB has PL in it's background (Cc) and was crossed with a PL variety (cc). My interest in tomato genetics now exploded, but I can't seem to find answers to all my questions anywhere!

The little I know is:
Yellow skin is dominant to clear skin.
Red color is dominant to yellow color.
Regular Leaf is dominant to Potato Leaf.
Small size is partially dominant to larger size fruit.

I wonder about things like: Where does Orange fit in here? Is it considered a variation of yellow? How about shapes? What would be dominant of heart, globe, beefsteak, elongated plum, irregular shapes just to name a few? Where does bicoloration fit in? If you cross a bicolor variety with a single color variety, how would the offspring be? If you cross a tricolor variety with a bicolor variety, how would that offspring be? Also, within the main colors: If you cross a pale yellow (white) variety with a warmer yellow variety (For instance Hugh's x Azoychka), would the warmer yellow be dominant to the pale yellow? Where does the gene that causes the green-when-ripe varieties to stay green fit in? What happens if you cross a det. variety with an ind. variety?

Thanks!

Hilde

[URL="http://kdcomm.net/%7Etomato/Tomato/mutant.html"]http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/mutant.html[/URL]

[url]http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Genes.html[/url]

Hilde, Mark bugged me again about my 2004 growout list and I did find it and will communicate with both of you.

Folks, Hilde is referring to KB that I sent Mark where one plant turned out to be as she described, a red RL heart.

He's been asking me what hearts/plums I grew in 2004.

Hilde, as I see it there's no reason at all to presume that KB has any PL in it's background, as in Cc, where the C could mutate to c. And that potential could exist with many varieties but the change from RL to PL for a single variety is not that common. The problem is that we have no idea of which varities are heterozygous for leaf form, as in Cc.

Yes, we have KBX, a PL KB, but that could have come about in several ways ala mutation and not just a spontaneous one involving just one gene pair. It's possible but not probable as I see it now.

In addition to the links given above, you might want to look at the 2nd edition of Carol Deppes book titled How to Breed Your Own Vegetables where there's an extensive list of tomato genes indicating which are dominant and recessive..

And while I still intend to send to you and Mark what I can, it's going to make much more sense when you've grown out your F2 PL and RL plants and see what they give you.

If it were a stray seed then you wouldn't be getting PL and RL's in the F2, as you know.:)

Morgan, those links will list a lot of genes/traits, but I can't figure out what is recessive and what is dominant from it! Thanks for always being so helpful! I really appreciate it.

Carolyn, I didn't mean to bother you with your notebook, since we do have months ahead of us before we see how the KB Heart F2 looks like. What I want with this post is to learn more about tomato genetics, and I have to start from scratch. That book you recommended might be exactly what I have been looking for, and I will check it out! Thanks!

I think this is so much fun and I would like to try to make a cross myself this year, just for the fun of it.

If a Cc variety self pollinate, will you get 1/4 PL?

It seems to me now that the KB Heart F2 seedlings have variations in leaves, not only the big difference between RL and PL. One of the PL plants is getting quite hairy leaves and the leaf itself is not smooth. I haven't grown so many varieties before, and I don't think I have seen leaves like that before on a tomato plant. I will try to document as much as possible this year. Make it an amateur research project. And then perhaps MAYBE by the end of the season we will be able to make an educated guess to who the other parent is.

Thanks!

Hilde

Yes, a Cc X Cc will give you 1/4 cc( PL)

And I'll bet you a LOT of something that you'll never know what the other parent is. Through the years I've had quite a few chance X pollinations and there simply is no way to determine what both parents are, just the maternal parent.

Now that's if you grow a lot of varieties as I have in the past, as in hundreds of plants and usually 100 and more different varieties. And I haven't taken the time to grow out many F2's, especially if the taste of the F1 was not all that great.

But who knows, maybe you will be able to ID it when I send you and Mark what he asked for, and that was hearts and plums. And he already asked if I was growing any Red PL's and the answer was no, not in the summer of 2004.

And yes, I think Deppe's book will be quite helpful to you.

Another link to the above information in .pdf format.

[URL]http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/10/4/305[/URL]

Dave and Sherry, you guys rock, this is exactly the type of info I am looking for!

Carolyn, I have ordered the book you recommended! It got great reviews on amazon.com. It is rare to see people raving about a book like they did that one. I can't wait to read it!

Dave, you should keep us updated on your cross attempts this season. I want to try crossing tomatoes for the first time also. Maybe the experiences we make during our first attempt can be helpful to others who want to try?

Hilde

Hilde, here's another perspective.

I applaud your efforts to do crosses as I do others, but most of the folks that I know pay little to no attention at all concerning tomato genes and dominance, recessiveness, except when using a PL for the maternal plant when the other parent is an RL, so one can tell if the cross took.

What most folks seem to do is to choose two varieties that have characteristics that they'd like to see combined in some way, into ultimately one offspring.

So that means saving seeds from thje initial F1 hybrid, planting out as many as you can from those F2 seeds, making selections from one or more plants whose fruits and performance please you, planting out the F3 seed, etc.

That is, they don't sit down and look at genes and try to predict what they might get based on the parents they've selected.

It's kind of like my foray into breeding daylilies when I'd go out in the AM and cross pretty by pretty. Or frangrant by fragrant.:)

Don't get me wong now, a knowledge of tomato genes , at least of the more common ones, is good to know, but there's so much more that isn't known, one example being the genes involved with gold/red bicolors.

[quote=carolyn137;98771]Hilde, here's another perspective.

I applaud your efforts to do crosses as I do others, but most of the folks that I know pay little to no attention at all concerning tomato genes and dominance, recessiveness, except when using a PL for the maternal plant when the other parent is an RL, so one can tell if the cross took.

What most folks seem to do is to choose two varieties that have characteristics that they'd like to see combined in some way, into ultimately one offspring.

So that means saving seeds from thje initial F1 hybrid, planting out as many as you can from those F2 seeds, making selections from one or more plants whose fruits and performance please you, planting out the F3 seed, etc.

That is, they don't sit down and look at genes and try to predict what they might get based on the parents they've selected.

It's kind of like my foray into breeding daylilies when I'd go out in the AM and cross pretty by pretty. Or frangrant by fragrant.:)

Don't get me wong now, a knowledge of tomato genes , at least of the more common ones, is good to know, but there's so much more that isn't known, one example being the genes involved with gold/red bicolors.[/quote]

Caroline, I have always been very interested in genetics and and dominant and recessive traits etc. I know you don't absolutely have to know these things in order to make crosses. But I want to! Just because I think it is a lot of fun!
So I am really looking forward to reading the book you recommended, and the research papers Dave and Sherry linked to.

Talking about gold/red bicolors, I have some Cherokee Bicolor from Mark growing in the green house. From two different mother plants. I believe they are F3.

How come there is so little known about the genetics of bicolors? Has there been little research on this or is this just particularly difficult to find out of? I just assumed that I would get all gold/red bicolored cherokees, but maybe not? The plants are very healthy, and they have tolerated whatever conditions I have in the green house better than most any other plant, perhaps except Bulgarian #7.

Is bicoloration dominant or recessive to single coloration?

I am having a lot of fun here, and part of the fun is learning about tomato genetics and speculate to whatever will show up in the crosses and offsprings. I don't have any illusions that I know it all, genetics can be very complicated. At some point I thought that two parents with blue eyes could not get brown eyed offspring, but it is in fact possible, although it doesn't happen very often. Genetics is more complicated than one would perhaps think.

Hilde

Hilde, I also find genetics very interesting.

Does anyone have any info on bicolors and stripes? This would sure help me in my experiments.

Thanks.

john

Hilde,



You have a lot of questions, but I don't think anyone can fully explain less making a complicated study yet further complicated.




[quote].....the gene list is confusing, it doesn't tell me what traits are dominant or recessive or partially dominant or recessive. Maybe I have overlooked something, but I can't seem to see where that is. [/quote]Patience is required with genetics!

[quote] I am growing out some tomatoes that has the temporary name Kelloggs Breakfast Heart F2. Mark Korney grew the F1, which was supposed to be Kelloggs Breakfast, but produced red heart shaped fruit on a RL plant.[/quote]OK. I know that Kellogg's Breakfast is a regulare leaf, pale orange fleshed tomato with no bi-coloring.

The heart shape must be coming from the other parent. The genetics does not necessarily mean that the other parent is red!!!!!


[quote] I sowed 21 seeds and got 50/50 RL/PL seedlings. This suggests as far as I know that KB has PL in it's background (Cc) and was crossed with a PL variety (cc). My interest in tomato genetics now exploded, but I can't seem to find answers to all my questions anywhere![/quote]I am not sure where this high of percentages of phenotype of potato leaf is coming from. Where are you coming up with the idea that KB has PL in it's background? See this link:

[URL]http://www.victoryseeds.com/catalog/vegetable/tomato/images/kelloggs_breakfast.jpg[/URL][quote]

The little I know is:
Yellow skin is dominant to clear skin.
Red color is dominant to yellow color.
Regular Leaf is dominant to Potato Leaf.
Small size is partially dominant to larger size fruit.
[/quote]Correct so far


[quote] I wonder about things like: Where does Orange fit in here? Is it considered a variation of yellow?[/quote]Depends on which orange gene you are talking about.



[quote] How about shapes? What would be dominant of heart, globe, beefsteak, elongated plum, irregular shapes just to name a few?[/quote]A few? Good Grief? I could not spend the time to show the dominant, incomplete dominance, etc., without writing the book.[quote]Where does bicoloration fit in? If you cross a bicolor variety with a single color variety, how would the offspring be?[/quote]You don't want to know much, do you?


[quote]If you cross a tricolor variety with a bicolor variety, how would that offspring be?[/quote]You want an answer on that too?


[quote]Also, within the main colors: If you cross a pale yellow (white) variety with a warmer yellow variety (For instance Hugh's x Azoychka), would the warmer yellow be dominant to the pale yellow?[/quote]To get the answer to that, you would have to visit my tomato trials with all this diverse crossing work going on, with F-1 hybrids, backcrosses, F-2's, three way crosses, etc.[quote]Where does the gene that causes the green-when-ripe varieties to stay green fit in?[/quote]I have all of that.
[quote]What happens if you cross a det. variety with an ind. variety?[/quote]You get mostly a strong semideterminant, but not always.

[quote]Talking about gold/red bicolors, I have some Cherokee Bicolor from Mark growing in the green house. From two different mother plants. I believe they are F3. [/quote]There are different patterns of bi-colors. You really don't want me to describe all of them, do you?
[quote] How come there is so little known about the genetics of bicolors? Has there been little research on this or is this just particularly difficult to find out of? I just assumed that I would get all gold/red bicolored cherokees, but maybe not?[/quote]Bi-colored tomatoes have exploded in popularity in the last few years. And most of it by hobby type gardeners leading the way. The professionals have not kept up. Try to put together a Punnett Square with multiple alleles and describe phenotypes in the segregation, let alone realize that some bi colors designs are best viewed in lines that will still segregate

[quote] Is bicoloration dominant or recessive to single coloration?[/quote]I would have to dig out all kinds of examples of my hybrids with the notes taken down over the years. I even get confused on this topic.
[quote]

I am having a lot of fun here, and part of the fun is learning about tomato genetics and speculate to whatever will show up in the crosses and offsprings. I don't have any illusions that I know it all, genetics can be very complicated. Genetics is more complicated than one would perhaps think.

[/quote] Hilde, thanks for saying that.

Some observations: First go to this site....


[URL]http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/40/5/715?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&titleabstract=tomato&fulltext=tangerine&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT[/URL]


The [B]F1 [/B]hybrids red [FONT=Arial]X [/FONT]apricot, yellow [FONT=Arial]X [/FONT]apricot, yellow-tangerine [FONT=Arial]X [/FONT]apricot and
tangerine [FONT=Arial]X [/FONT]apricot were red in color, but as can be seen from table [B]3, [/B]the lycopene
content was not always within the range of a typical red,



Dave mentioned the genetics.org's large info site. See below for a 1937/1953 era reference...


[URL]http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/38/2/117.pdf[/URL]



[quote]

1937)
Cites correspondence with MACARTHUR which the latter suggested that
crosses involving Tangerine orange [I](RRtt) [/I]and yellow (YYTT) produce a
9 red [FONT=Arial]: [/FONT]3 yellow [FONT=Arial]: [/FONT]4 orange (3 orange and 1 light orange) F2 ratio. From their
own data, however, these authors suggested that the inheritance was considerably
more complicated.
[/quote] Monohybrid segregation is always a first start of explaining genetics...
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monohybrid_cross[/URL]

Monohybrid cross is used to determine the F2 generation from a pair of homozygous grandparents (one grandparent dominant, the other recessive) which results in an F1 generation that are all heterozygous. The pairing of these offspring results in a monohybrid cross and results in the F2 generation, with a 75% chance for the dominant phenotype and a 25% chance for the recessive phenotype.

[FONT=Arial]A dihybrid cross is one where two traits are crossed.[/FONT]

[CENTER][CENTER][B]Phenotypic Ratio[/B][/CENTER]
[/CENTER]

[CENTER][CENTER][B]9[/B][/CENTER]
[/CENTER]
[CENTER][CENTER][B]3[/B][/CENTER]
[/CENTER]
[CENTER][CENTER][B]3[/B][/CENTER]
[/CENTER]
[CENTER][CENTER][B]1[/B][/CENTER]
[/CENTER]
[CENTER][CENTER][B]Note the segregation of MacAthur’s Tangerine/Yellow cross earlier in the segregation of phenotypes[/B][/CENTER]
[/CENTER]


[CENTER][CENTER][B]Trihybrid Cross (three genes) [/B][/CENTER]
[/CENTER]
Segregation in the F-2 population depending on allele counts.
Monohybrid phenotypic ratio= 3:1
Dihybrid= 9:3:3:1
Trihybrid= 27:9:9:9:3:3:3:1
Tetrahybrid= 81:27:27:27:27:9:9:9:9:3:3:3:3:1

You notice a pattern here? The more a trait is controlled by multiple genes at different alleles, the more confusing the blanket statements on bi-colors, etc. can be. The F-2 and even to some degree the F-3 population is showing phenotypical disorder. One must know from experience when something is stable or not, and that may be an exercise of trial and error for most of us.

The major problem I have in bi-colors is that I need more time and more plants to establish ratio coordinates. When I most often have only one or maybe six plants in an F-2 or F-3 population, I cannot answer as certainly as a Three Stooges character.

Tom Wagner
BTW, forgive my ramblings.

Tom,

Thanks for the additional information and your in-depth insights.

john

Quote:
I am growing out some tomatoes that has the temporary name Kelloggs Breakfast Heart F2. Mark Korney grew the F1, which was supposed to be Kelloggs Breakfast, but produced red heart shaped fruit on a RL plant.
OK. I know that Kellogg's Breakfast is a regulare leaf, pale orange fleshed tomato with no bi-coloring.

The heart shape must be coming from the other parent. The genetics does not necessarily mean that the other parent is red!!!!!

****

Tom, just to bring you up to speed here, I sent some KB seeds to Mark and he grew out this F1 almost red heart and he wants me to look at my grow out list for the year I saved the KB seeds and I've told both him and Hilde I'd get back to them with that.

And I also have mentioned that the other parent doesn't have to be red. I found out that when Craig and I were trying to figure out the other parent for what became known as OTV Brandywine, which was a cross between Yellow Brandywine and ?????.

At first I assumed the other parent had to be red, but that turned out not to be the case re genetics.

Hilde and others, please note above that I said something along the lines of.......don't get me wrong.....about genetics not being important. I taught biochemical genetics and human genetics for many years, but to date I know far more about those situations than I do tomato genetics.

Sometimes when I get a plant with fruits that are crossed I do try to check out genetics re a possible other parent, but most of the time I don't. And I don't do deliberate crosses so that hasn't been an issue with me.

So as I said above, little is known about the genetics of gold/red bicolors as Tom has also mentioned. So Tom, if you've got a handle on it, why not share?

I would like to share a few things about the bi-color mess, but I am going to gone for a 12 wedding schedule for my daughter Karina. I am finishing up a transplant to the field of about 500 varieties of tomatoes right now, so don't wait up for me. My Lamarckian tomato planting with temps in the 40's is rather insane, but somebody has to to the remarkable lamarckian thing.

Tom Wagner

Not waiting up but looking forward to more of your informative writing!

john

Since I am now at, or near, the location of my daughter's wedding, I have a few moments during the next few days to contact the Rick Tomato folks at Davis, California. I will ask if anyone has a handle on bi-colored breeding genes relating to dominance, etc.

I may look at their gene bank for details of which genes might be available that would make a good test for breeding.

I am not around my breeding notes now, so I will have to wing it with them.

Tom Wagner

Thanks, Tom!

john

I just off the phone will Roger Cheletat of the Tomato Resources Center here in Davis, California where I am staying at the moment. Unfortunately, he could only take enough time to return my call as he and his associates are busy with field trip preparations.

We talked in some detail about gene expression of (at), a recessive gene called (Apricot) which is noted for having yellow-pink flesh color. We also talked about gf, gs, and gr.

Apparently since they are curators of genes rather than breeders, the information we are seeking is not known offhand by Roger. It also seems that some of the genes I have been using have mutated since the phenotypes are not as the descriptors of those genes delineate.

Bi-colored fruits have been studied in the past, Roger states, but I will have to explore the database more completely before I talk with him again.

The high pigment genes are bouncing around in many of my creations, but I am too rusty right now to explain how I am using the enhanced expression for flesh colors. To give you some idea of the complexity of the subject see these links below.
[quote]...gene carrying three tomato mutations that are in many respects isophenotypic to[I] HP-1[/I]:[I] high pigment-2[/I] ([I]hp-2[/I]),[I] high pigment-2j[/I] ([I]hp-2j[/I]) and[I] dark green[/I] ([I]dg[/I]). The entire coding region of the[I] DDB1[/I] gene was sequenced in an[I] HP-1[/I] mutant and its near-isogenic normal plant in the cv. Ailsa Craig background, and also in an[I] HP-1w[/I] mutant and its isogenic normal plant in the GT breeding line background. Sequence analysis revealed a single A931-to-T931 base transversion in the coding sequence of the[I] DDB1[/I] gene in the[I] HP-1[/I] mutant plants. This transversion results in the substitution of the conserved asparagine at position 311 to a tyrosine residue. In the[I] HP-1w[/I] mutant, on the other hand, a single G2392-to-A2392 transition was observed, resulting in the substitution of the conserved glutamic acid at position 798 to a lysine residue. The single nucleotide polymorphism that differentiates[I] HP-1[/I] mutant and normal plants in the cv. Ailsa Craig background was used to design a pyrosequencing genotyping system. Analysis of a resource F2 population segregating for the[I] HP-1[/I] mutation revealed a very strong linkage association between the[I] DDB1[/I] locus and the photomorphogenic response of the seedlings, measured as hypocotyl length (25<LOD score<26,[I] R[/I]2=62.8%). These results strongly support the hypothesis that[I] DDB1[/I] is the gene encoding the[I] HP-1[/I] and[I] HP-1w[/I] mutant phenotypes.[/quote][quote][FONT=Arial]Plants respond to light by an array of developmental responses referred to as photomorphogenesis. Several photomorphogenic mutants were described in [B][COLOR=black]tomato[/COLOR][/B]. Among these, plants carrying the monogenic recessive [I]high pigment[/I] ([I]hp-1[/I], [I]hp-1w[/I], [I]hp-2[/I], [I]hp-2 j[/I], and [I]hp-2dg[/I]) mutations are characterized by an exaggerated light responsiveness. These mutants display shorter hypocotyls and higher anthocyanin levels in their seedlings, and share overall darker pigmentation of leaves and fruits. The increased pigmentation of fruits of these mutants is due to significantly elevated levels of carotenoids, primarily lycopene, in the mature fruit. Because of their effect on lycopene content, [I]hp[/I] mutations were introgressed into several commercial [B][COLOR=black]tomato[/COLOR][/B] cultivars, marketed as Lycopene Rich Tomatoes (LRT). Initially, these [I]hp[/I] mutations were marked as lesions in structural genes of the carotenoid biosynthetic pathway. However, studies have demonstrated that: 1) [I]hp-2[/I], [I]hp-2 j[/I], and [I]hp-2dg[/I] represent different mutations in the gene encoding the nuclear protein DEETIOLATED1 (DET1), a negative regulator of photomorphogenesis; and 2) [I]hp-1[/I] and [I]hp-1w[/I] represent mutations of the gene encoding UV DAMAGED DNA BINDING protein 1 (DDB1), a protein interacting genetically and biochemically with DET1. The discovery of [I]det1[/I] and [I]ddb1[/I] mutants in the [B][COLOR=black]tomato[/COLOR][/B] has therefore created a conceptual link between photomorphogenesis and over-production of fruit phytonutrients. Indeed, metabolite profiling, carried on fruits harvested from [I]hp-2dg[/I] mutant plants, show that this mutant is characterized by overproduction of many metabolites; several of which are known for their antioxidant or photoprotective activities. This metabolite overproduction is associated with up-regulation of many genes, as determined by transcriptional profiling of fruits obtained from [I]hp-2dg[/I] mutant plants in comparison to their isogenic normal controls.
In conclusion, our results demonstrate that manipulation of light signal transduction may be an effective approach towards improving the nutritional and functional quality of the [B][COLOR=black]tomato[/COLOR][/B] fruits[/FONT]

[/quote]When I find the time I will try to explain the above research in common language.

Tom Wagner

Couple months later.... anything else to add to this subject? Tom?

It appears that hp-1 and hp-2 are mutations in two different transcription factors that each control expression of various light regulated genes. Transcription factors are regulatory genes often controlling a cascade of related genes in one or more biochemical pathways. The "high pigment" naturally occuring mutants hp-1 and hp-2 (and their various alleles) are characterized by an exagerated light responsiveness, darker green foliage, and increased fruit pigmentation. The increased fruit pigmentation is the result of increased accumulation or carotenoid pigments (primarily lycopene). Interestingly there is also an inceased level of production and accumulation of various other beneficial phytochemicals, including vitamins C and E. This led Levin et. al. (2003) to state that these characteristics make one or more of these hp genes/alleles attractive candidates for non-GE "functional" tomatoes. The term "functional foods" is now being used to describe foods with enhanced nutritional quality. A recent paper in Nature stirred some controversy reporting the production of GE tomatoes with transcription factors from Snapdragon that up-regulated anthocyanin production. Anthocyanin and carotene are common plant pigments, both now associated with various potential health benefits.

Good discussion. hp also appears to be associated with very firm fruit which is slow to ripen. I'll have to look up that article in Nature.
frogsleap - I plan to try backcrossing to L. hirsutum. Have to see about plant vigor and seed viability, but I think some of the desirable traits might appear - pest and disease resistance. However, increased sucrose levels may be single gene recessive. Like to incorporate that, though.

[quote=frogsleap farm;114435] A recent paper in Nature stirred some controversy reporting the production of GE tomatoes with transcription factors from Snapdragon that up-regulated anthocyanin production. Anthocyanin and carotene are common plant pigments, both now associated with various potential health benefits.[/quote]

I saw a news clip on this a couple months ago, and was very interested to see the various segregates, many of which were very compact dwarfs that appeared to be affected by wilts. They looked like the wilts I often see on black fruited plant foliage. The colours of the fruits were variations of brown black and purple black. I saved this on my DVD hard drive and must go back and look at it again!

Patrina

Mentor Tom, where are you? Any updates?

Carolyn, could you please e-mail me the 2004 heart/paste list?

By the way, I only got to grow 3 plants of the "KB Heart" cross and got this:

one RL red
one [B]PL[/B] red
one RL [B]PINK[/B]!

Any ideas on why these combos, plese feel free to discuss.

I am growing/pursuing the RL Pink & PL red this season.

Mark

One BIG bump... still lots of questions unanswered...

I was surprised to see how little I remember of what is still languishing on these threads. Sorry for being distracted.

I am smack dab in the middle of seed extraction and have little time to respond. I have several bulk progenies to photograph and describe. The genetics of selfing Glacier X Green Zebra is giving me too much to handle with all of the funny, but expected recombs happening.

I have had a lot of potato leaf, reg leaf F-2's that were used in furthering the diversity of tomatoes of hundreds of crosses. Just writing that down on seed papers is about all I can do now. Maybe I will find some down time and post on these subjects.

[quote=carolyn137;98771]Hilde, here's another perspective.

I applaud your efforts to do crosses as I do others, but most of the folks that I know pay little to no attention at all concerning tomato genes and dominance, recessiveness, except when using a PL for the maternal plant when the other parent is an RL, so one can tell if the cross took.

What most folks seem to do is to choose two varieties that have characteristics that they'd like to see combined in some way, into ultimately one offspring.

So that means saving seeds from thje initial F1 hybrid, planting out as many as you can from those F2 seeds, making selections from one or more plants whose fruits and performance please you, planting out the F3 seed, etc.

That is, they don't sit down and look at genes and try to predict what they might get based on the parents they've selected.

It's kind of like my foray into breeding daylilies when I'd go out in the AM and cross pretty by pretty. Or frangrant by fragrant.:)

Don't get me wong now, a knowledge of tomato genes , at least of the more common ones, is good to know, but there's so much more that isn't known, one example being the genes involved with gold/red bicolors.[/quote]

Sounds like "just do it and see what happens" rather than trying to predict uncertainty.