Problem with Red Brandywine
 

I have planted Red Brandywine for the past three years, and every year it has become infected with disease and the plants have all died before the end of the tomato season (a couple plants died before they had any ripe tomatoes). My other varieties all seem to make it to the end of the growing season. Is this issue related to the growing conditions in my area, the seeds I purchased or something else? I have used the same seed all three years.

Are you growing other heirloom varieties? Or are the rest of your plants hybrids?

Also, are you using any disease control such as Daconil?

[quote=tam91;188358]Are you growing other heirloom varieties? Or are the rest of your plants hybrids?

Also, are you using any disease control such as Daconil?[/quote]

All of my tomato plants are heirloom varieties. I have not used any disease control in the past, but have thought about using it next year.

I have fungal foliar diseases in my tomato beds and Brandywine Red, Landis strain was one of the more tolerant varieties for me. I got the seeds from the SSE public catalog and thought the variety was very strong and productive. Which particular diseases do you have that are causing you the problem?

I have the regular-leaf red brandywine, and it and red pear both seemed to get more disease than some of the other varieties.

I do use Daconil though, or I wouldn't have any plants.

Most of mine had a bit of blight, but I kept it at bay. The above two, however, seemed to have some septoria leaf spot, and it was more difficult to control.

I had problems with red pear last year too.

All, however, made it to the end and had lots of fruit - they just looked a bit sad.

[quote=travis;188360]I have fungal foliar diseases in my tomato beds and Brandywine Red, Landis strain was one of the more tolerant varieties for me. I got the seeds from the SSE public catalog and thought the variety was very strong and productive. Which particular diseases do you have that are causing you the problem?[/quote]

I often read in seed catalogs that Red Brandywine is very tolerant, that is why I am surprised I have so much trouble with it. I am not 100% certain of the disease, but I think it is early blight. I compare the diseased leaves from my plants to pictures in a catalog, and it looks like early blight, but the longer I look at the pictures the more diseases I come up with.
:lol:

I feel your pain. Trying to figure out which disease isn't so much fun. At least Septoria Leaf Spot is... spotty.

Maybe post a picture, and see what people think?

In any case, unless you're horrendously opposed, I'd suggest trying the daconil.

Carolyn wrote a very informative piece on foliar diseases that's posted in the "Pests & Diseases" forum here. It's called "Forewarned is forearmed: how to read your tomato leaves" and is well worth a read, especially if you're having issues.

[quote=fortyonenorth;188365]Carolyn wrote a very informative piece on foliar diseases that's posted in the "Pests & Diseases" forum here. It's called "Forewarned is forearmed: how to read your tomato leaves" and is well worth a read, especially if you're having issues.[/quote]

Thank you! It sounds like just what I need to read.

Mark, yes I have Early Blight and Septoria Leaf Spot. The Red Brandywine got both of those diseases but for me it seemed they tolerated them much better than most heirloom types. Another good one was Burgundy Traveler which got both diseases but put out enough new healthy foliage to stay ahead of total vine death.

I'm just commenting on the apparent disease tolerance rather than prevention because we all know the benefits of Daconil, pruning, spacing, etc.

I think it was about 1991 when I first started growing Red BRandywine and I've grown it from time to time ever since, especially for new seed stock when I used to list it in the SSE YEarbook.

For me it was never that different from any of the other OP varieties I was growing, almost all heirlooms at the time, in terms of foliage diseases. Where I live there aren't any significant systemic diseases most years.

Travis, the SSE Public catalog doesn't list the Landis strain, which isn't a strain anyway. It's Linda at TGS who lists it. And she did it b'c she lists two Red Brandywines, neither of which are Red Brandywine, gifts from Seeds by Design, ahem, so she wanted an authentic one so got one from the Landis Museum in PA and called it the Landis strain.

There are no strains of RB.

The person who first got RB out oif the Yearbok was TOm Hauch whose seed company is heirloom seeds in PA and he still calls it his signature variety. He was the one who sent seeds of RB to Steve Miller at the Landis Museum and it was Steve who got the background info on it.

So there you go, for those interested. Just adding that a few years ago Tom sent me seeds of his RB and asked me to grow them out and compare with my seeds/growouts, and they were the same. he did that b'c someone was saying that his RB seeds weren't right. It ultimately turned out that the customer discovered that his seeds weren't from Tom's site at all and it's not the first time that's happened, and while Tom had no computer records that shoqed the guy had bought the seeds from him the guy told him that his computer was in error. The customer is NOT always right.

Ah, stories I remember and that one was a bad one.

Red Brandywine is a confusing critter. I had trouble (buying plants) last year because the store near me had potato leaf ones.

So... where does one buy seed for the REAL red brandywine, if one does?

[QUOTE=tam91;188388]So... where does one buy seed for the REAL red brandywine, if one does?[/QUOTE]Victory Seeds lists the "real" Red Brandy - I'm sure there are many others as well.

[quote=carolyn137;188378]Travis, the SSE Public catalog doesn't list the Landis strain, which isn't a strain anyway. It's Linda at TGS who lists it. [/quote]

You are correct. I checked my 2009 grow list and it was Tomato Growers Supply that I got the Red Brandywine, Landis strain from.

[quote=tam91;188388]Red Brandywine is a confusing critter. I had trouble (buying plants) last year because the store near me had potato leaf ones.

So... where does one buy seed for the REAL red brandywine, if one does?[/quote]

Tam, the first thing you do is to go to Tania's site, actually when looking for seed sources for ANY variety, and find Red Brandywine. Then on that page scroll down until you find seed sources. and then you maybe ask others where they know that correct Red Brandywine seeds are sold.

[URL]http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Brandywine,_Red[/URL]

And from those sources I'd suggest:

Heirloom Seeds, b'c Tom still maintains what he initially got from the YEarbook all those many years ago

Sandhill Preservation, Glenn was offering the correct RB before there were ever ANY PL versions, same with me as to no PL versions when I started growing it.

Tania herself sells seeds for RB

Jeff Casey's site

Victory Seeds b'c I now know that Mike has the right seeds. What he was offering at first was a PL version, several of us contacted him about that, he pulled the listing and then after that is listing, I'm sure, the correct RL RB.

I can't speak to the others except to say that a few years ago Tomatofest had some RB on sale, but what folks got was a PL version which wasn't mentioned at first. I don't know about the one in the regular list, nor do I know about what folks get from the other sources listed.

And if you get RB from TGS be sure you get the one labelled Landis strain per the history I gave above.

The Red Brandywine that I grow was originally from a few seed Carolyn sent me about 7 years ago. They are highly productive regular leaf medium size tomatoes with decent but not exceptional flavor. They do cross from time to time as I have found by identifying a large fruited plant a couple of years ago. I've sent Glenn at Sandhill seed a few times and know for sure that what he sells are the right variety.

DarJones

Thank you. Silly of me - I use Tania's (wonderful!) site all the time, and do look up where to buy seed.

I had a regular leaf Red Brandywine this year - not sure if I want it again or not (of course, I'm not sure just what it was). It was medium sized fruit, pretty productive, and pretty good. Not amazing flavor though, just good.

[quote=Fusion_power;188397]The Red Brandywine that I grow was originally from a few seed Carolyn sent me about 7 years ago. They are highly productive regular leaf medium size tomatoes with decent but not exceptional flavor. They do cross from time to time as I have found by identifying a large fruited plant a couple of years ago. I've sent Glenn at Sandhill seed a few times and know for sure that what he sells are the right variety.

DarJones[/quote]

I don't know what's happened to RB in the past b'c when I was growing it it was a darn good tasting variety. Maybe I should go back and fetch some of my VERY old seeds sometime and see if it's what I remembered.

I don't think as many places as do sell seeds for it would do so if it weren't a good variety.

Darrel, I never had RB cross for me. When I was still growing hundreds of plants and varieties each season and listing hundreds of varieties in the SSE YEarbook there were only a few that turned out to cross easily.

Aunt Ruby's Green was one of them and Cherokee Green faked me out once but I had three plants of it and two were fine and the third gave me pale yellow spitters. I ran across the seeds still on plates of that spitter just last week when I was looking for some other variety.

There were two more that crossed easily but right now I can't remember them.

And that's growing where I do with the potential pollinators that I have and knowing they were most active early in the season I always saved seed from later maturing fruits. No bagged blossoms either. And my crossing rate was about 5% which means out of seed saved from 100 varieties about 5 will turn out to be crossed.

And that level of X pollination for specific fruits can vary widely since if complete self pollenization doesn't occur, then any X pollination can lead to fertilization of any non-fertilized ovules in the tomato ovary and those can vary widely as well.

I can have a batch of maybe 2000 seeds and distribute seed for close to 1000 seeds before I or anyone else reports an off type.

Last year I listed Serdtse Buivola in my free seed offer here and sent out lots of seed and just one person got an offtype as far as I know, and no one who got them from me via my SSE listing did, but then the feedback I get here at Tville is more than I ever got from my SSE listed ones.

Carolyn,

Crosses happen, fortunately not often. I agree that Red Brandywine is in the "not often" category. But once in a while it does get promiscuous like all the tomatoes I've grown. Others that get around are Dr. Carolyn Pink and Galina which is its parent.

When I said the flavor was good but not exceptional, I would have rated it as 8.0 or maybe 8.5. A really good Nepal would rate 8.75 and an outstanding Brandywine Sudduth would go 9.25. For comparison, I've had 2 tomatoes that hit the top and shoved my overall flavor scale off the chart. One was Sunlucky which is still segregating heavily.

DarJones

This year I tasted my Red Brandywine compared to a Delicious, which is supposed to be decent for a hybrid.

I didn't find the Brandywine way better, not even sure I liked it the best.

However - I did buy the plant from a nursery, so who knows if it was the tru Red Brandywine.

Now I'm being inclined to try it again, making sure I have the real thing.

How do you think Red Brandywine compares to Brandywine OTV?

[QUOTE]I have used the same seed all three years.[/QUOTE]

Is it possible your seed could be diseased?

[quote=Barbee;188454]Is it possible your seed could be diseased?[/quote]

It's possible. I purchased the seed so I'll never know for sure. I'm definitely not planting the same seed again. Diseased seed would be the most logical explanation as to why the Red Brandywine plants are the only plants that die.

[quote=Mark0820;188489]It's possible. I purchased the seed so I'll never know for sure. I'm definitely not planting the same seed again. Diseased seed would be the most logical explanation as to why the Red Brandywine plants are the only plants that die.[/quote]

However all of your plants would be exposed to foliage diseases and I have a hard time seeing one variety die b'c of a systemic disease such as Fusarium or Verticillium, etc. Systemic diseases aren't that common in Ohio and even if you had one in your garden soil I can't see that one variety would be affected and not others.

Did you ever make a deifinitive diagnosis of what they died from based on the symptoms that you saw?

[quote=carolyn137;188493]However all of your plants would be exposed to foliage diseases and I have a hard time seeing one variety die b'c of a systemic disease such as Fusarium or Verticillium, etc. Systemic diseases aren't that common in Ohio and even if you had one in your garden soil I can't see that one variety would be affected and not others.

Did you ever make a deifinitive diagnosis of what they died from based on the symptoms that you saw?[/quote]

I am fairly certain early blight is one disease, but doubt this caused the plants to die. I just looked at a variety of diseases, and Fusarium best describes the problem I had. The lower (older) leaves would turn yellow first (I kept these leaves pruned.). Then, before the plant died, the entire plant turned yellow. This last step (entire plant turning yellow) happened fairly quickly (much quicker than when the older, lower leaves turned yellow). I can't quantify the amount of time, but it seemed like the entire plant turned yellow with little to no warning. Maybe it just seemed more quickly because the entire plant turned yellow compared to when only a few leaves were turning yellow. I don't know if there are any other diseases besides Fusarium that would describe this process.

Just to clarify my original message, my other varieties had signs of this disease, but they seemed to handle it much better than Red Brandywine. The other varieties would survive the season, and it wasn't as pronounced.

When Barbee mentioned diseased seed, it made me wonder if the Red Brandywine plants were compromised more quickly because of the seed and therefore they didn't withstand the disease for as long of a period. I am just speculating at this point, because I am not an expert in this topic.

Do you mean 'diseased seeds', or 'contaminated seeds'? I may be wrong (please correct me if so), but I doubt that the seed would 'contain' the disease...if it did, shouldn't that give it some immunity (like a flu shot, or other vaccine)? I can certainly understand contaminating the seeds, once collected, but not the seed carrying a disease gene within itself.

[quote=RinTinTin;188517]Do you mean 'diseased seeds', or 'contaminated seeds'? I may be wrong (please correct me if so), but I doubt that the seed would 'contain' the disease...if it did, shouldn't that give it some immunity (like a flu shot, or other vaccine)? I can certainly understand contaminating the seeds, once collected, but not the seed carrying a disease gene within itself.[/quote]

RTT, most of the pathogens that are fungal are found on the exterior of the seed coat while most of the bacterial and viral pathogens that we know about. I mean the ones that have been Ided in the interior, are found in the endosperm of the seed. And b'c of the latter, when it comes to bacterial pathogens youll see that various websites offer seeds treated with hot water, which does help but also reduces the viability of the seeds being treated.

Fermentation and most of the other methods used to process seeds can reduce, but not eliminate the pathogen burden on the seed coat but can't do anything to what's inside.

Luckily fungal foliage pathogens are the most common pathogens of tomatoes and since infection is quantitative, being able to reduce the fungal pathogens on the exterior also can cut down on seed mediated transmission.

Hmm. Interesting. So the seed [b]can[/b] contain the pathogen inside, rather than just on the outside. Thank you for that info. So in other words, it would be beneficial to be [u]extra[/u] selective in choosing which fruits/plants to save seed from.

[quote=RinTinTin;188528]Hmm. Interesting. So the seed [B]can[/B] contain the pathogen inside, rather than just on the outside. Thank you for that info. So in other words, it would be beneficial to be [U]extra[/U] selective in choosing which fruits/plants to save seed from.[/quote]

Since none of us want to take on hot water treatments, which are dicey, I pay no attention whatsoever to any diseases that my plants might have in terms of using fruits for fermentation, which I prefer b'c it' natural.

Where I live and grow tomatoes there are no systemic diseases to worry about.

And to date I don't know of one instance where any seeds that I've sent out have resulted in diseased plants.

But I do know that Fusarium has been a problem for some and seeds with Fusarium have been sent out by some non-commercial folks.

So folks who do have problems with some of the systemic diseases might want to pay more attention to that.

Fairly recently the oxyclean/comet methods were being discussed elsewhere and I asked if anyone had any data to show how effective they were in ridding the seed exterior of pathogens but no one knew of any.

I know that fermentation does remove most but not all of the pathogens on the seed coat from the results of Dr. Helene Dillard who worked at the USDA station at Geneva, NY and who did those assays with either grants from Campbell's or Heinz, I can't remember which company right now.

I could buy some new Brandywine seed and see if the problem goes away next year. That would provide some clarity as to the fact there is a problem with the seed (which it appears there is).

However, I do have limited space and have never planted any of the hearts. Therefore, I was thinking of trading in my Red Brandywine problem for some hearts. I will see if I can still squeeze in one Brandywine plant.

I vote you just chuck the seeds and grow the hearts you've been wanting to try :) If you have limited space why waste it on a plant that isn't cutting the mustard?